What is Social Washing in Tourism?

I think the industry peddles a lot of trends that are completely just wrong.

I'm sorry, it's like, I think it's like one of my pet peeves actually.

Can we just get rid of all these buzzwords and get down to what really?

Over the last few years, I've noticed that responsible sustainable tourism has been gaining more and more attention.

Anecdotally, I see more coverage of it in the mainstream media.

I notice more tourism boards and DMOs making sustainability a priority.

And I have noticed more and more people online discussing the negative impacts of tourism and how to counter them.

With responsible tourism gaining traction, though, there is the risk of social washing.

Today we're chatting with Lily Gurma about what social washing is, where we're seeing it, and how it applies to the tourism industry.

We'll also chat a bit about how to avoid it.

Lilly Girma is a full time travel news reporter at Bloomberg Pursuits as well as a freelance award winning journalist.

She has more than 15 years of experience in the travel industry, reporting on global tourism with a focus on sustainability, and she's also the founder of Tourism Lens, a website dedicated to news, insights and tips on meaningful travel.

Hi Lily.

Hi.

This is Curious Tourism, the podcast focused on making travel better for people and the planet.

I'm Erin Hines, travel writer and content creator and I'm joined by my producer, Katie Lohr.

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Before we get into social washing and the main reason that you're here, I wanted to unpack a story of yours that was published recently and caught my eye and it is about how Bhutan is making tourism easier on travelers and their goal is to revive the economy.

So this is a story that you wrote and it's mainly focused around the sustainable development fee, which is something that Bhutan is very known for.

It's very expensive to travel there because you are required to pay a daily fee.

It used to be $200.

That's USD, correct?

Yes.

It actually used to be a different system.

They had a minimum daily package rate.

That was before the pandemic and you had to spend at least I think 200 some dollars per day as part of your package.

Only 65 dollars of that went to the government.

So it was spread out.

But then when they reopened, they reopened with a much higher and separate sustainable development fee.

So they basically unbundled it and hiked it up.

And then all the tour operators came in and said, what?

This sounds like a phone plan.

This sounds like how media works in Canada.

You can bundle your Internet and ph, what is this?

Yeah, so it's very expensive and they said it would just drive up the cost for travelers.

Travel is restarting again.

You have to give people incentives to return.

So they lowered it a little bit and sure enough the numbers started picking up.

Do you want to explain in a bit more detail how the current sustainable development fee is structured and how it works and maybe how it might be beneficial to Bhutan to use this model.

So Bhutan is very unique in this way that they've always been very careful about the impact of visitors on their culture and on their environment.

And so this isn't, you know, they've been known for this.

They even have like a gross happiness index by which they measure their success.

So it's not just about economic success, it's also, you know, about health, quality of life, housing and all of these different elements.

Now because of the huge pandemic hit, obviously they came out of it really struggling economically and they realized that they do need more visitors.

This is always a struggle, right?

It's like everyone, you know, not everyone, but like many countries want low impact, but then you also need the revenue.

So the sustainable development fee is, from what I was told, structured to fund different projects, including environmental preservation, cultural preservation, any other projects that are identified that particular year.

They say they're going to be very transparent about it and share how it was spent.

I think that the fact that they have such a strong brand already as a very culturally focused, very spiritually focused destination, they will probably attract more of that kind of traveler.

We'll see.

That's the question now that they're using influencers to promote it.

It's just a different feel when you see influencers posing by Tiger's Nest or who are they going to attract exactly?

And there are some long time travel operators who are saying that that might not be the right market to attract.

What do you think about this model of management?

Do you think this is something that could be replicated by other countries?

Do you think it's a good approach to creating a more sustainable model of tourism in a country?

I think it is.

I mean, I Think that having a separate fee and making everyone aware that their money is going towards benefiting the place, and if it really is transparently done and we know exactly where the funds are going and we see the development, then absolutely.

I think that travel is a privilege.

Traveling for leisure is a privilege.

And I think that everyone giving a little bit of extra for that trip, I mean, I would do it, and I think a lot of people would too.

So would I.

But a criticism I hear a lot is that it means that only like a certain part of the travel population is able to go because only, like wealthier travelers are able to afford it.

What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah.

Yes and no.

I mean, because even if you go to Bhutan now with reduced fee, you could still stay in a lower end or sort of, you know, let's say three star hotel, or you could do a homestay, which is, you know, much more affordable.

They've expanded their online platform to list all of these different options for the first time, you know, you can actually sort through them.

So, yeah, it's a little bit more work, but don't necessarily have to go all luxury.

And I think that's like a very common misconception about places, including in Africa.

A lot of destinations that are focused on safari, for example, make you feel like you can't go there because it's going to be like $10,000 for the trip alone.

And I had that perception too, for a long time.

Even though I'm African, I grew up in Africa.

But the way they sell it, the way that Kenya or South Africa, et cetera, sell those activities, you know, I feel like I'm priced out.

And it was designed for wealthy white people, you know, but that's not necessarily true.

And I was talking to a friend who had been to South Africa many, many times, and she'd figured out how to go on safari independently.

You know, you could travel to South Africa, buy your flight, go stay somewhere, and then you can tack on, you know, a couple of days of safari at the nearby, you know, national park.

And it will cost you much less.

So, you know, there's always a way.

And I just think that the way the travel industry packages a lot of these things is problematic.

Yeah, it plays into people's perceptions because I had the same experience.

My husband and I went to Tanzania this year for the first time.

It was our first time in like, sub Saharan Africa.

And like, we tracked the expenses of all our travels and at the end of the day and we did a safari, it wasn't the most expensive trip we've done.

There you go.

There you go.

Yeah, we stayed in small guest houses, which was also a better experience overall.

Like, we didn't want to stay in.

Exactly.

Luxury lodges and stuff.

Right.

And I think we just don't talk enough about that.

The different ways that you can travel.

It is also interesting that you mention Bhutan leveraging influencers more because interestingly, I keep an eye on this stuff.

Obviously, I have noticed, like an influx of influencers in Bhutan and also Socotra.

I've been talking to people about Socotra, like, why am I sudden seeing so many people in Socotra?

And it's so frustrating because no one provides context about Socotra and Yemen.

And yeah, I worry about these kinds of campaigns because they're not very education focused.

It's really unfortunate.

Yeah.

Especially Yemen.

I think what's been happening there is tragic and we don't hear enough about it in the media, but it was really.

It's like a missed chance to educate people and just to show a pretty island.

And I feel like, you know, there's so many instances of this happening in the travel industry and at the same time you're hearing messages of, you know, we want to do great and we want to support the environment, we want to support communities, but yet you have these independent parties who are inviting influencers to places where people are pretty much suffering and no one's talking about it.

No one bothers me.

I find this really interesting and I feel like this leads into our conversation too.

But incorporating influencers, it almost feels to me like that a strong campaign for an influencer would include the social impact of their travels and how the country is asking people to come and how it might be good for the economy and those kinds of things, rather than going and just sort of posing in front of something and being like, wow, this place is so beautiful.

I want to believe that people would travel somewhere because they think it would be helping an economy of some kind, But I don't know.

What are your thoughts there on how influencers approach this campaign?

I think it depends.

I mean, I don't.

To be honest with you, I don't follow every influencer that travels.

Influence.

Influencers, I kind of tend to avoid.

Yeah, I will say that they're probably maybe a couple who.

Who mention the sustainable development fee and what it's for and why you should go there, because Bhutan respects their culture and environment, et cetera, and that's good.

But I think that the audience they'll tend to attract probably won't necessarily care.

They'll probably care more about the fact that it's a beautiful place, it's off the beaten path, not many people have been there.

And it's the hot place to be right now.

Right?

There's always the it place to be.

I'd like to think that people care, but to be honest with you, I think the majority don't.

Erin, you should ab test us this.

For us, because obviously, like, I am to a degree, an influencer myself, and I have worked with DMOs, and I will say anecdotally, but I push to cover things from that lens, and sometimes it doesn't land.

I find a lot of DMOS just are not interested.

They just want me to show aesthetic.

So this is something I'm personally, like, pushing more for with demos.

But recently I worked with Cape Breton, and they were very open to promoting sustainability, and the campaign went really well, and my audience was super responsive to it.

So I think, like, if you have developed an audience that does care about this stuff, that kind of content has the potential to make an impact.

I think the issue is that a lot of influencers just don't care about this.

No, most don't.

Most care about what they're getting paid.

It's something that takes time to build.

And I think that, you know, you can certainly get into it now.

You know, it's never too late.

But I think that it does take time to attract those kind of folks.

I've been doing it for, like, I mean, you know, upwards more than 15 years.

So people knew me when I started out with my little blog.

So I think credibility is a big thing.

And I think, for example, when you go to a place where you know that there's a conflict in this backyard and you don't mention it, you're losing credibility.

And people are not stupid.

I think we underestimate audiences.

Yeah, it's so true.

I've actually been putting a lot of effort lately because I know that a lot of people that are within my community are also creators.

And so I've been putting more effort towards talking about this, talking about, like, how to make content that is more impactful.

And one of the things that I'm talking about a lot lately is how important it is to contextualize what you're sharing.

And at the end of the day, like, I find that that makes for a better story, at least, like, my audience, I'm finding, is responsive to that.

So hopefully, in, like, the coming years, we'll see more of a shift towards that.

I would like to see that.

Yeah.

I mean, I think we can't convert everybody.

Right.

I mean, I think that it.

I think it's okay to just not worry about who will latch on.

It's just important to do it.

So, Lily, I know you have focused a lot of your work around social washing in the travel industry.

So to get started, could you explain to us just in case there are folks who are hearing this phrase for the first time what social washing is and why it's a problem?

Sure.

So this is a term I actually started using in the last couple of years, but I've been thinking it for a long time.

It's situations where you have companies in travel that play up the fact that they're responsible in terms of contributing to the community where they're located.

They're committed to social justice, or they're committed to diversity, equity, inclusion, ethical labor.

You know, they're making all of these claims, yet there's very little proof of it.

I think it sells.

You know, people are more, you know, that they want to support those kind of brands.

And so it sells, and it's out there.

It's all over the place.

It could be, let's say, tour operator.

And there's a page that shows an image of, like, you know, black kids in some little village somewhere, or brown kids, you know, and they're saying they're supporting a whole educational school and who knows what else.

Right.

But there's no tangible evidence unless you go digging.

So it happens a lot.

And people have to be careful what they buy into.

Yeah, I'm thinking of these.

I've seen, like, a lot of growth around these sort of, like, volunteerism platforms where people are, like, volunteering their time for their stay.

Yeah, yeah, the volunteering.

Right?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

We've covered that on this show a few times.

That's why I kind of made, like, a surprised face, because I was like, you've been seeing growth in Vol and tourism, but I guess it's just a different angle.

Oh, it's a different angle around it.

It's so interesting.

It's framed as, like, a way to travel cheaply.

So a lot of backpackers are doing it now, and it's not like sort of the more traditional, like, go work in an orphanage in Africa model.

It's more like go work on this farm somewhere in Central America type thing.

That's hard to say.

That's been around for a long time.

Yeah.

I'm just noticing it a lot more on social media.

I see.

Wow.

Is it not being framed as, like, regenerative travel.

I feel like some of it is.

Sometimes it is, yeah.

It's definitely framed as like, you're doing good by traveling in this way.

So would you say that social washing applies to, like, other industries, or is this something that you're thinking about specifically in the tourism framework?

Oh, absolutely.

I think it's a common thing.

I mean, we've seen nonprofits do that too, famously.

I just think that in tourism, it's become much more common because of this whole since COVID focus on you want your travels to benefit the place that you're visiting, you want to give back to the place.

It's all these terms that are coming up ever since.

And that's part of it.

It's sort of okay, you're telling me you support the community around you or how exactly?

I don't think that statements and platitudes is enough.

Where's your annual report?

Where is it on the website?

How do I see what percentage of my tourism funds went to the project that you say you're so involved in?

It's helpful, I think, to say maybe that it's quite similar to greenwashing, but it's a more expanded framework.

Not just sustainability issues, but also issues not just environmental.

Yes.

And you mentioned transparency and sharing documentation about actual impact.

I was going to say, are there ways that we can spot and avoid it when booking travel?

I'm guessing that that's one way.

Or maybe reaching out to the company or organization and asking, can you show me tangible proof of what you've been doing?

Yeah, you have to get comfortable asking questions.

You know, that might seem a bit odd to call and say, oh, you know, this and that, but you have to just go for it if you care.

I'm used to it because it's part of my job to assist things.

So people come to me and want me to write stories about them.

I'm like, okay, where's the data?

You know?

But you do have to be comfortable asking.

You have a right to ask.

It's okay because they're making the claims, so why not?

Oh, that's so great.

You know, it's so great you do this.

Could I see the annual report or your last or most recent annual report?

I would love to see what changes have been made and see what they say.

You'll get a good sense if they're evading the answer.

If they're just, oh, we'll get back to you.

And then you never hear.

You'll know how committed they are.

I think the answer to this question is pretty obvious, but why would you say it's important that people are thinking about this, especially if they are personally committed to traveling in a way that's better for people on the planet?

I personally think it's a responsibility as someone who's privileged to travel overseas and see different places.

It's very clear, and it's all over the news almost every day, that climate change is literally decimating destinations that perhaps we've enjoyed in the past, where people live there, entire communities, and we play a part in that every time we hop on a plane.

We're part of the emissions that are driving climate change.

We're part of the footprint that we create when we're in the destination.

We also have an impact on the places of people that we meet.

Right.

From at a human level, visiting communities or indigenous communities.

There's an impact from your presence and are you really wanted there?

If you are wanted there, how can you buffer your impact?

You know, and so it.

It really matters where you put your money.

And I always say, like, it just.

I like to simplify things.

And when I plan a trip, my first question is, where is my money going?

That's all I need to know is, where is my money going?

Who am I supporting?

Sometimes it's not as black and white.

Perhaps you want that really cute, culturally driven guest house, and it doesn't exist in that area.

You know, maybe it's a Hilton.

You know, nothing wrong with Hilton, but maybe it's a Hilton and they're doing a lot for that particular community.

But also, perhaps, if not, there's a way for you to go into the community that's around there and hire a local tour guide and take part in something that gives back in that area.

And when I say gives back, I usually hate that term because it's not charity.

Right.

I always say it's like I get value every time I travel.

Residents give me value.

They share their culture with me.

They share their time with me.

For me, that's just like intangible.

Intangible.

It has intangible value, but it also should be monetary because they're sharing their knowledge with me, they're sharing their time.

And I would like to see my money go to folks like that.

That enriched my experience, because at the.

End of the day, like, when it comes down to it, it is an economic exchange.

When we talk about it, it totally is.

Yeah.

And like, we shouldn't deny that about.

No, we shouldn't.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And that's something that is very common, you know, in this.

In this industry.

There's this discomfort talking about that, but it's like, it's like, it's not charity.

You're getting something in return.

It's an exchange.

It's very clear that you're there as someone who's bringing money and buying things, and that's okay.

That's part of life.

Like, you know, I think this is so important to say because I know that, like, personally, when I started traveling in my teens and then my early 20s, I had an obsession with spending as little as possible.

And one of my, like, biggest realizations was, like, this is antithesis to, like, what I should be doing.

And something I've come to accept.

Like, as I've gotten older, obviously it's changed because I have more buying power because I work more.

I have a career now.

But I've come to realize that, like, spending money is the point.

Like, that's what I should be doing.

It's.

It's funny, I have a friend who used to say it was her.

I think she called it her privilege tax or her gringo tax.

I'm not sure.

Something like that.

I think it can probably be very easy to get fooled by social washing, especially because discourse around sustainability and social responsibility is growing even in, like, the seven, eight years I've been focused on this.

Like, I've seen it grow so much.

And like you mentioned, social washing gives us an easy way to feel better about how we are not only traveling, but living our lives in general.

So something I notice a lot within the social washing sphere is trending terms.

We've mentioned it already, but one I've seen circulating a lot recently is the term regenerative travel.

This type of travel claims to focus on positive social and environmental impact with the goal of giving back to local communities.

It has been floating around for a while and we have not yet brought it up on curious tourism.

And the reason why is that we feel it's just a flashy, trendy new term for, like, the basic idea that we've been talking about on this show for the last five years.

So, Lily, I know you have thoughts and feelings about this.

Could you share your personal take about regenerative travel, but also just this, like, trend around coming up with new terms for this.

Yeah, first I'll talk about what I've learned it is so far, and I will say that my understanding of it is evolving.

A regenerative approach to travel means not just that we're giving back to places, but that we're Actually seeing it as a holistic system where you want the environment, communities in a particular place to thrive for generations to come.

It's basically making sure that the elements that make up tourism, without which tourism would not be possible, you know, so people, nature, all of the things that are being impacted by climate change, and also, you know, the loss of biodiversity, the loss of cultural heritage, all of these things.

Making sure that when you're undertaking tourism, you're using tourism funds to set up a system where everything is going to thrive because everything is interconnected.

We're all interconnected.

We're people, but they're also living lands and waters, and we're all part of this system.

And ensuring that the system thrives requires for us to put these things first before economic gain.

That's where I have kind of a skepticism to whether or not the travel industry can take on regenerative travel at a larger scale.

Because, let's face it, tourism is extractive.

Tourism is about making money for shareholders for many of these companies.

That's what it is.

It's about making money.

It's an industry.

So how do you reconcile that with completely changing the system so that now you're not pushing growth anymore, you're just focused on restoration, revival for the future, and community enrichment?

I've not seen this industry put community enrichment first ever.

I mean, most of the industry, I will say at the highest levels.

Is that really going to change?

Also, regenerative travel, from what I understand, is based on an indigenous way of thinking and approach to life that I think many of us lack.

It's not something we grow up with unless, you know.

And when I say indigenous, I don't want to generalize either.

So regenerative travel is very specific to the place and that particular community and what they need to restore.

And the issues might be different, the challenges could be different.

It's very, very, like, you know, it's very specific.

And at the same time, it's like, no.

No one's figured out, like, can we really scale this?

Is this really possible in a system that is capitalistic?

Yeah, I was going to say it's the opposite of, like, the capitalist model that most of the tourism industry follows.

It seems like it.

And, you know, there are places that are really doing great job in taking on regenerative travel.

And it's become a conversation, which is great, but it's turning into a trend because marketing marketers, I was going to.

Say, like, your description of it also makes me realize, like, it's not really something that, like, Individual tourists can build like we can make decisions that support it, but it's actually more on the industry side.

It's that the industry needs to adopt this model.

So seeing the average traveler, the creators, the influencers talking about it is kind of pointless in the sense that, sure, we can be putting pressure on the powers at B to be shifting to this model, but it really is the industry.

Yeah, you can't really put the onus on travelers because it requires very specific knowledge of a place.

And so how can you know that unless you've been there, unless you've built a relationship with those communities, unless you build trust over the years?

What the industry can do though, is if they want to, which I'm very skeptical at some corners are like Hawaii now, after many, many years of extraction.

They're doing that from the highest levels, from the governor down.

They've even passed a bill where they want to incorporate more broadly regenerative principles into tourism.

And so they've come up with, you know, they've built partnerships with different organizations, nonprofit organizations, community organizations, to create these experiences for travelers.

And that's really great.

I think that if we could do that in every destination, that would be really great.

But I don't think that's the case.

So are there other places that you can note where you think there's like a good attempt at least?

I think it's been around for many years because as I was thinking about it, I used to go to Belize all the time.

And it's helping them, you know, thrive.

It's helping them with their agriculture, it's helping with many other projects that are tied into tourism.

And they've been doing it for a long time.

And that's regenerative travel.

There's a lot of regenerative travel in Belize.

It has been for a very long time.

Belize has also had a sustainability fee for a very long time that is included in your air ticket, I believe, called the Pact fee.

Yeah, yeah.

It's interesting you bring up Belize.

Sorry, I just have to note because my partner and I went there two years ago and we both noticed this.

Oh, yeah.

It changed experience as a tourist.

Like, it makes for a better experience.

It's an.

It's.

They have some incredible tourism experiences that I think many other countries are lagging behind.

And also, you know, the fact that they, they have a stability.

They're very environmentally focused and obvious.

Not perfect, but yeah.

So I was thinking like, well, this has been around for a long time.

Why is everybody like thinking this is new, this is a new.

But you know, it's a new thing to market.

So I think like the answer here is pretty obvious as well.

But I will ask anyways.

Do you think that trends like regenerative travel within the industry can do a disservice to actual progress and change?

I think that it's a double edged sword.

Talking about it is great.

I think the fact that more destinations are looking into this is positive, into this sort of approach to tourism.

I don't know.

I think the industry peddles a lot of trends that are completely just wrong.

I'm sorry, it's like, I think it's like one of my pet peeves, actually.

Can we just get rid of all these buzzwords and get down to what really matters?

Can we not have one more panel on supporting communities?

I'm sorry, it's like I don't want to see a bunch of executives on stage one more time telling me how to run tourism when I know the people on the ground that I've met for decades, right, doing my books and stuff that tell me what's wrong with tourism, that no one cares, that the tourism board always promotes the big resorts because they have the funds, right?

Because they bring in the investments.

And nothing is improving in many places.

Just more of the same.

And so, you know, every time I see these trends land in my inbox, I'm just like, oh my goodness, there's a trend that just drives me insane.

And it's the dupes.

Travel dupes.

I've not heard of this.

Oh, you've not heard of this?

Oh, it's been going for like a year now.

Is it like travel hacks?

Oh, is it like.

No, it's like substitute.

Right, right, right.

Instead of Croatia, go to Albania type thing.

Never mind that they're completely different.

Never mind that they have completely different.

Completely different cultures, like villages, landscapes.

So insensitive.

I think it's like one of the most insensitive trends out there.

But they think they're doing everyone a service because they think they're diverting crowds.

But that's not how you divert crowds, by saying you can interchange places like they're commodities.

It's so problematic.

I absolutely detest it and I still see it coming to my inbox.

And also, you know, dispersing crowds is not just about changing destinations.

There are Within a single destination.

There are many places that would love to have more tourists and don't because they're not marketed properly.

We've talked about this before on the show and recently I went to Iceland and I went to the Westfjords, and it was a completely different experience than the rest of Iceland.

We went there because the tourism board is asking people to go to the lesser visited regions of the island.

Because people will say to me, well, you're against over tourism.

Why did you go to Iceland?

And I think there's nuance to it that gets missed a lot.

And it's like, you can still go to these places, but travel them in a way that is more beneficial to communities by spreading out your tourism dollars to regions that are not seeing the tourist numbers because it's all concentrated in a lot of countries.

Yeah.

I'll tell you one of the more.

One of my most meaningful experiences this year is I went to Venice.

Wow.

And I thought I would hate it.

I really did.

I was convinced, in fact, because all you hear about now is, oh, Venice, over tourism.

And I've written about that many times.

And I wanted to go and understand, you know, firsthand.

I thought, let me just go see what it's about.

And there's nothing like seeing a place for yourself.

And also, it's another place that's very misunderstood.

You don't necessarily have to have that overcrowded experience in St.

Mark's Square.

No, I should tell you, I lived there for six months and I told people all the time, I would tell people how much I loved Venice and they would be like, how can you love it?

And I said, I lived there from January.

So first I spent most of my time there in the off season, but also wander 10 minutes the opposite direction of St.

Mark's Square.

And it is quiet.

No one talks about this.

And I spent overnight on the island.

It's quiet.

The evening, it's lovely.

I think I just spent like a long weekend there Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and I left Monday.

And then I spent a day with Jane Demosto, who's the founder of We Are Here Venice, who I'd been in touch with through my stories over several years.

And she.

I spent a day with her just walking around Venice and also understanding some of the issues through her eyes.

And then she also took me to lunch at her home with her family.

Edda had a completely different perspective of Venice.

And then she.

I found out through that lunch and talking to her teenage sons that there was this big event the next day that's called the Vogalonga.

And this sailing on the lagoon kind of celebration of the waters of Venice.

Not really a competition, but it was just so incredible.

And I thought this is why you have to travel.

Like, it's.

You don't have to go to the same place.

Everyone goes in that destination, but you can spread out, stay overnight, you know, and learn more about the culture if you choose to.

So, yeah, I love it there.

I would love to go.

I'm so glad you say that, because people.

Yeah, it's got a lot of negative about how much I love that city.

Yeah, people have very strong feelings about it.

They do.

They do.

Yeah.

It's interesting you bring it up, too, because, like, it was actually living there that made me.

I was very young.

I was like 20 years old when I was living there, and very early in my travel obsession, and I was living with a family there.

And I learned a lot about over tourism from that experience.

Like, I learned about, like, the impact of cruise ships just because it was like, my lived daily experience.

Like I've told people often, one of, like, the trick to living there was to know what time of day the cruise ships arrived.

And that was, like, a huge realization for me.

But it was also a lesson in that, okay, like, there are ways to escape it, and that can be as simple as walking the opposite direction.

So I think, especially in the age of social media, it's really easy to form opinions and perceptions of places through a lens that lacks nuance.

So I'll share an example.

My husband and I were in Zanzibar earlier this year, and it was very interesting to compare our experience to what we'd seen portrayed, particularly on social media.

On social media, we had just seen beach resorts and sunset boat rides and swimming with turtles, which are all experiences that you can have there.

But we didn't feel that it was very representative of life or culture on Zanzibar.

We ended up spending most of our time there in Stonetown because we just ended up falling in love with that city.

And we just felt like ultimately that the portrayals we saw lacked a lot of context.

So something you mentioned to me as we were preparing to record this episode is how important context is when visiting places.

Do you think that this Zanzibar example points to that?

Yes, and I think there are many places like that.

I can give you one that very popular where I lived for, like, seven years.

It's the Dominican Republic.

The Dominican Republic is postcard for, you know, perfect beaches, resorts, and it does that really well.

But there's a whole other side to the Dominican Republic that is incredible.

Culturally so diverse.

I would reckon that most people still don't know this.

I mean I found something like four to five Afro Dominican cultural groups, one of which is or two of which are UNESCO protected and that no one talks about.

You know, they have their own festivals and stuff.

And there's many parts of the country, countryside as well as cities that are just beautiful, thriving, different from north of the Caribbean, much more vibrant.

I just feel like there's this energy there.

But people are so busy talking about Punta Canaan or you know, they miss the mountainous side.

There's a whole mountainside to Dominican public where you can go mountain climbing, which I did.

You can camp, you can hike.

The highest peak, Pico Duarte, the highest peak in the Caribbean is there at 10,000 plus feet.

And it's a very diverse country in landscape and people.

But most people miss that.

It's either you hear about Punta Cana or you hear about Haiti and the Haitian migration issue.

And I can almost immediately tell when somebody's never really truly spent in time in the Dominican Republic.

It's like you said, many of these popular places, unfortunately people do a disservice by not talking about the context and maybe they don't know the context because they don't have the time.

A lot of people travel for just like a week or something and I think so it's the responsibility of those of us who do this for work to shed light on these issues and on this diversity as well and encourage people to dig deeper.

I think people think that it's a lot of work to take the time to do that, but I find like it actually really isn't like one thing I always tell people whenever I'm headed to a country, I join their subreddit.

There's always like a local subreddit.

I go on Reddit anyways and I learned so much.

I look at Reddit too by reading the local subreddit.

Just about what life is like, like what issues people are facing.

You can learn so much from those forums and that's like a very low lift thing to do that takes do it on the flight there.

I like reading comments from locals.

I think it's very eye opening.

I mean obviously there's some toxicity to social media, but if you look at the comments and you see what the general sentiment is about a government or about something that's happening there, you'll get a good sense of things.

But there's nothing replaces seeing it firsthand and Experiencing it firsthand, for sure.

Since we've touched a bit on the topic of travel in East Africa, I wanted to bring up a stat that you mentioned recently in a reel that you posted, which is that last year there were globally 1.3 billion tourist arrivals around the world, and only 5% of those arrivals were on the African continent.

So I have my own hunch about this, but I wanted to ask you, why do you think that countries in Africa are not attracting more visitors?

I'm very excited about this because I'm actually going to do a podcast on this with a very, very knowledgeable Africa tourism person.

Can't reveal who it is yet.

My thinking, there's lots of reasons for this.

And this came up because I was at a conference in Zambia with UN Tourism, and I spoke at the conference.

And the question was one of the audience participants asked, my God, look at everything that's happening in Spain.

And they just have so many tourists that they don't even want to see them anymore.

What are we doing wrong?

Why aren't they coming here?

And I thought that's, well, one.

It's not exactly the right question to ask, but one of my answers was, well, Europeans have done really well with tourism because they embrace their culture, they make it easy to experience.

They have the resources to do so.

If I want to, say, take a cooking class or I want to take a history walk or any of these, it's really easy to find.

In fact, there's so many options, it's exhausting.

If I'm going to Spain or wherever, it's really hard in some of these African destinations.

It's just not market ready.

It's not market ready in, say, even where I was in Livingston, Zambia, I had a very hard time finding cultural experiences that are, like, organized ready.

And, you know, there were maybe like 1, 2.

The cooking class was.

I had to schedule way ahead of time.

You know, there's a lot of things like that, and that's because of the lack of resource, the lack of training.

The government needs to put a focus on this.

And obviously, Europe has been doing tourism for as long as we remember because they were also colonialists that went to other places and discovered them.

There's a lot that goes into that.

I think that's one of the reasons.

Another reason is that these tourism boards in many African destinations heavily promote animal encounters and safaris, which is also a colonial thing.

You know, it has a roots in colonialism.

It's a great thing to see, though.

I mean, I went on safari and I Was like, okay, I get it.

You know, it's like pretty amazing to see an elephant just a few steps away from me.

Okay, that's amazing.

But it's not the only thing I want to do.

It's not the only thing I'm going to do either because I want to go and experience the culture.

I want to take a hands on experience and I want to support local entrepreneurs.

There are so many brilliant entrepreneurs on the African continent in fashion, in art, you know, in the culinary world.

It's incredible.

But no one really knows about this at a level that they know about Europe.

So the exposure is lacking.

Then there's a perception, of course, of safety.

It's not safe.

You know, that's what the media has been selling for a very, very long time.

I mean, how do you go against that?

Right.

It's really hard.

The impact of Western media and how they're constantly driving this negative message when it comes to the African continent, which seeps into people's minds, you know, stereotypes.

It's great to see more people heading there now, but I think there's still a long ways to go.

Yeah, I think that is such a perfect description of it because even like in my experience traveling in Tanzania, I can speak to experiencing that firsthand.

Like my partner and I really wanted to do more than safari and we spent time doing more than safari, but it was a little more challenging than other places we've traveled because there just isn't the same infrastructure.

Even compared to like we've traveled a lot in Asia compared to Asia, just the resources available for having like specific tourism experiences.

We found it more difficult, but it was worth the effort for us.

We mind you had like the privilege of time and money and so we were able to do it.

But I do understand how like someone who has two weeks off may not want to work that hard to have that experience, which is a shame because I wish that people would because we fell in love with Tanzania.

To wrap up, you've been reporting on travel for more than 15 years and with this experience behind you, I'm really curious to hear how you think the industry has evolved over this period in a positive way.

But also I'm sure there are some negative ways.

So yeah, I'm curious to hear your observations just based on the scope of time you've spent in this industry.

I think the industry has come quite a bit of ways.

Actually.

I'm hearing a lot more about community driven tourism.

Supporting artisans, having more immersive experiences on trips, supporting local businesses.

All of this has become sort of more common, and that's great.

But I do think that on the other hand, there's still a disconnect.

I think that we're facing a lot of challenges globally that will impact tourism in ways that probably none of us have anticipated.

There are the wars, the new administration coming into the United States, which is going to have ripple effects on many places around the world.

We don't really know how that's going to pan out.

It's just a lot of also social conflict.

There's a lot of divide, you know, a bigger divide than ever between rich and low income, because inflation, because the world is really just becoming a world for the rich.

I think that.

And then obviously, climate disasters, which become so much more common.

It's scary.

And so how do we.

You know, a recent example, I was in Asheville, you know, in May, I think I did a whole feature story in Asheville, an assignment, and then a few months later, it's decimated.

I mean, there's a whole part of.

Not all of Asheville, but like the River Arts District, which is one of the main attractions for visitors.

They go there for the art galleries, for the creatives.

It's very well known, you know, surrounding mountain communities also seeing their homes washed away.

One of the tourism board employees that took me around that weekend a few times, her house was washed away.

Like, I mean, it's just like this is hitting, you know, this is becoming very common and hitting close to home.

And how is tourism going to tackle all of this?

We're not talking enough about that, I feel.

And I think we're still in this sort of bubble of denial.

There are a handful of folks who are talking a lot more about climate action, but for the most part, business as usual is continuing.

We saw a similar example this year in Jasper.

We're based in Canada, and it was just a devastating, devastating event.

The entire town was burnt down as the fires.

Yes.

And so I feel like there's an urgency, but I don't sense the urgency from the industry.

It's business as usual.

What would you like to see change?

Like, in an ideal world?

Oh, my God.

In an ideal world, tourism would be led by communities.

They would be trained and ready and offering us most incredible experiences.

They would have more of the piece of the pie.

In an ideal world, I would see more diversity in leadership in the travel industry, which is on the side of the pond.

North America, Europe, I think it's still severely lacking, and I don't think that's hard to see every time you go to events, people who are making decisions or decision making table are the same.

How can we have changed when that's the case?

It can be discouraging.

And I think that's something that even the people who are on podiums preaching about regenerative or preaching about needy based tourism or preaching about climate action are people who are running organizations where not a single black person sits on their board.

Not a single black person sits on the decision making table of that nonprofit that engages with brown communities.

How is that still okay?

How are we still accepting this?

And how do we expect the travel industry to change when that's the case?

And it's not just a matter of identity politics.

It's about the fact that there are many qualified people out there of diverse religions, diverse heritage, diverse life experiences in travel that would so benefit the industry and reinventing the industry at this particular time.

And it's people are not doing it.

They're not hiring these people.

So that's problematic.

And I would, in an ideal world, like to see that change.

I don't expect it to though.

I would like better education for travelers.

I think that there is an immense gap when it comes to people understanding that tourism isn't just about their best life, that tourism is an industry.

That tourism is an industry that is very, very complex because it involves so many people in so many layers.

And even though we had a whole pandemic where we saw this, people don't really understand what their role is in the industry.

They don't understand how the money flows.

They care mostly about their comfort and their perks and amenities because that's what they've been sold.

And that's how the industry has presented itself over the years.

And it's time to change that.

You know, you can have your vacation, sure, but you can also take five minutes to think about your impact.

And if the unit, if the industry came together on this, there would be a much more, you know, a much more improved sector.

So that would be to me, you know, and I want to involve also, and I say the industry.

I mean everyone, not just the executives, I mean also the creators, the influencers.

We're all influencers in one way or another, but especially the ones that have gazillion followers.

I wish they would just stop driving the superficiality of travel and give context.

You can have both.

They can coexist.

Are there any resources that you would point people to who are listening, who want to make an effort to educate themselves better when they travel?

What are some, like, simple things that people can do.

It's not complicated.

I think it's just, you know, try to find out as much as you can about the destination by reading local outlets.

Ask your networks.

You know, sometimes we underestimate the people that we know.

They have very vast networks, especially if, you know, travelers.

Ask them if they know a community leader that they trust that they can learn from.

Ask them if they've had some incredible immersive experiences on their trip and ask them to, like, what outlets do you read from your country?

You know, if you're going to their country.

What should I know about the mood there right now?

And just have some, a little bit of a context, you know, And I find that that's the great thing about things today is that we have so much information at our fingertips, but we also have the challenge of knowing which is the reliable one.

And I always say referrals are the best thing.

Well, Lily, thank you so much for this discussion.

It's been so great to hear all your wonderful insights about things.

I learned a lot from this chat.

If people want to read your work, where can they find you?

First of all, thank you so much for having me.

It's really fun discussion.

They can find my work at Bloomberg.

I write for Bloomberg Pursuits.

I'm on the travel team there.

I have a monthly column called the Better Travel Bureau and I also have a YouTube channel which is quite active at the moment where I share thoughts on tourism as well as thoughts on living abroad and the lessons I've learned on from the road.

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