Traveling Mindfully: How to Decenter Yourself in 2025
Join Erin Hynes and Amanda Kendle as they explore mindful travel, cultural awareness, social media impact, and tips for responsible tourism in 2025.
Please note: Midway through this episode we mention that a woman was killed by an elephant in Spain. This was a mix-up in reference to the recent news that Blanca Ojanguren Garcia, a 22-year old woman from Spain, was killed by an elephant while in Thailand: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/07/asia/spanish-woman-killed-elephant-thailand-intl-hnk/index.html
Guest: Amanda Kendle is a travel podcaster and writer, lecturer/trainer, and social media consultant. She is the host of The Thoughtful Travel podcast, where she chats with fellow travelers about their experiences, and what they’ve learned from their travels.
Links:
- https://www.notaballerina.com/
- https://www.notaballerina.com/podcastmenu
- https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-thoughtful-travel-podcast/id1269489189
If you’re a fan of the show, don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Curious Tourism: Responsible Travel Podcast.
Follow us on social media @curioustourismpod.
Read Erin’s award-winning blog, Pina Travels.
Subscribe to Kattie’s podcasting newsletter, Pod the North.
CREDITS
Written and Hosted by Erin Hynes
Produced by Kattie Laur
Music is “Night Stars” by Wolf Saga/David R. Maracle/Chippewa Travellers. Additional music from Motion Array.
Logo by Nicole Hall
Transcript
I think that I'm asking very optimistic what does it mean to travel better?
Erin Hines:Some people might seek to travel better by figuring out the best hacks for booking flights or finding the most off the beaten path places to go.
Erin Hines:But for me, traveling better isn't about me.
Erin Hines:It's about decentering ourselves in our travels and focusing on how we can approach travel in a mindful and respectful way.
Erin Hines:In a way that is better for the people we visit and for the planet.
Erin Hines:Because contrary to the old adage, no, the world is not your oyster.
Erin Hines:Today I'm chatting with fellow podcaster Amanda Kendall about the things we can do to be more mindful travelers.
Erin Hines:Amanda is the host of the Thoughtful Travel podcast where she chats with fellow travelers about their experiences and what they've learned from their travels.
Erin Hines:This is Curious Tourism.
Erin Hines:The podcast focused on making travel better for people and for the planet.
Erin Hines:I'm Erin Hines, travel writer and content creator and I'm joined by my producer, Katie Lohr.
Katie Lohr:If you enjoy the show, Aaron and I would love you to support it.
Katie Lohr:If you can do one good thing this year, it is support our podcast by telling somebody about it or just finding ways to interact with us and telling us what you want to hear about.
Katie Lohr:The comments are open on Spotify and you can also leave us a very nice review on Apple Podcasts if you're into it.
Erin Hines:You can also get in touch with us directly on social media or by email.
Erin Hines:All our contact info is in the show notes.
Erin Hines:So Amanda, welcome back to Curious Tourism.
Amanda Kendall:Thank you Erin and Katie.
Amanda Kendall:It's so exciting to be here again.
Amanda Kendall:I love chatting with you.
Erin Hines:I love chatting with you too.
Erin Hines:And I'm really happy we got you on for the first episode of the year, especially like what we're chatting about.
Erin Hines:I feel like this is a nice like start to the year to just have like a little, little huddle to talk about like how we can all be better tourists.
Amanda Kendall:2025, I think it's important to just, yeah, start the year with the right intentions and some good reminders.
Erin Hines:So there is something I wanted to chat about before we dive into the good stuff and it is some travel news that I have seen circulating and it's actually travel news that's like been in the works now for quite a while.
Erin Hines:I used to post TikTok videos about this and get a whole lot of angry comments about it.
Erin Hines:And:Erin Hines:And the EU are introducing ETAs.
Erin Hines:The EU calls it an ETIAS and they will be implemented and applied to many people, including Canadians and Australians.
Erin Hines:And basically what this means is we will have to apply for.
Erin Hines:It's essentially an E visa ahead of arrival in the country and pay a fee.
Erin Hines:Canadians and I think Australians have never had to do this before to visit the EU or the uk and a lot of people are upset about it.
Erin Hines:So I'm just going to say right off the bat, we shouldn't be.
Erin Hines:I had a friend visit me from the UK over Christmas and I asked him, I was like, so how much money did you pay to come to our country?
Erin Hines:And he told me he paid ten pounds.
Erin Hines:So this is fair.
Erin Hines:This is fair that we have to pay the fee as well.
Erin Hines:What do you think, Amanda?
Amanda Kendall:Absolutely.
Amanda Kendall:I mean, I have no issue with especially like pretty much On Demand electronic.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, like, you know, there's a whole lot of processing that goes into having people come into countries.
Amanda Kendall:I don't mind that at all.
Amanda Kendall:And the people who get outraged by it.
Amanda Kendall:Well, I get outraged by their outrage, to be honest.
Katie Lohr:Erin, did you mention how much the fee is?
Katie Lohr:Do you know?
Erin Hines:Oh, let me check.
Erin Hines:Oh, hold on.
Erin Hines:Us going in is £10 as Canadians.
Erin Hines:So he paid less.
Erin Hines:I can't remember what he told me he paid, but I know it was less.
Erin Hines:And for the euro it's not much.
Erin Hines:It's something around that like 10 pounds, which I think is around like 15 Canadian dollars for us.
Erin Hines:15 to 20, which is reasonable.
Erin Hines:I've paid a lot more to enter a country in the past.
Amanda Kendall:Exactly.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, absolutely.
Amanda Kendall:Well, let me add my Australian outrage.
Amanda Kendall:Not my outrage, the outrage in Australia at the moment that's similar, and I get similarly angry about it is that the fees to get an Australian passport have just leapt and leapt fairly high.
Amanda Kendall:They were already pretty high.
Amanda Kendall:And there's all these news stories going around about Australian, the Australian passport being the most expensive in the world.
Amanda Kendall:And people are very outraged by having to pay this much for their passport.
Amanda Kendall:It is relatively expensive.
Amanda Kendall:So it is $412 Australian dollars for a 10 year adult passport.
Erin Hines:So that sounds like a lot.
Katie Lohr:It's a bit pricey.
Amanda Kendall:It is quite a lot.
Erin Hines:Let me see how much that is in Canadian.
Amanda Kendall:So we have a reference we've got to have.
Erin Hines:Yeah, that is 370 Canadian dollars.
Erin Hines:Let's see how much it is in US and 255 US so yeah, that's a lot.
Erin Hines:That's like more than double what Canadians pay for a 10 year passport and.
Amanda Kendall:It is a big chunk at once.
Amanda Kendall:Like a friend of mine last week she had to go and apply for her and her husband and her two kids passports.
Amanda Kendall:And so that's a lot of pay right there.
Amanda Kendall:But she didn't complain because she's like a sensible, lovely, like oh, you know, that's.
Amanda Kendall:And they last for 10 years, et cetera, et cetera.
Amanda Kendall:You know, some people say that's only $40 a year, but above all, and it's the same with the visas, we have the massive privilege of obviously being able to afford to travel and that is just one of the costs that come with it.
Amanda Kendall:And the vast majority of the people in the world never get to travel and leave their country.
Amanda Kendall:So aren't we lucky to be able to pay this money?
Amanda Kendall:I mean, I wish it was a bit less too.
Erin Hines:Sure.
Erin Hines:I wish it was more accessible.
Erin Hines:Like that would be maybe more people would trav if like the cost of a passport was more accessible.
Erin Hines:Although I got to say, like, especially when you're in Australia, where to travel to another country like basically involves an expensive flight.
Erin Hines:No matter what way you slice it, I think like if you have privilege enough to be able to fly to another country from Australia, you can probably afford the fees for a passport.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, I think that's pretty much the case.
Amanda Kendall:I mean, I totally agree.
Amanda Kendall:Like from an accessibility point of view that does make me a bit.
Amanda Kendall:But I know that the people who are complaining about it, that's not their issue, they just don't want to give it.
Erin Hines:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Katie Lohr:Remind me again if travel insurance covers damaged passports because that might be a nice benefit to have.
Amanda Kendall:I don't reckon it does.
Amanda Kendall:And I must say that there has been also outrage here because we have these new super duper biometric passports that have like this whole plastic page that's been kind of sewn in and they apparently don't wear very well and curl up quite quickly.
Amanda Kendall:And people have been saying, I paid all this money and look, it's already looking like a passport that people might not, you know, their immigration somewhere might not let me in.
Amanda Kendall:So that's an additional controversy.
Amanda Kendall:My son's just got one of these brand newies, but it still looks fine and flat.
Amanda Kendall:So I don't know.
Erin Hines:Yeah, that's what I got.
Erin Hines:I got a new one last year and it's the same, it has that like strange plastic page.
Erin Hines:But I do think it's like overall more durable than the previous one I had.
Erin Hines:But it's true.
Erin Hines:I would Be pretty upset to pay that much.
Erin Hines:And then like in two years it's rendered like unusable just because of a quality issue.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Amanda Kendall:I hope they would replace those if it turned out that they were, you know, manufactured poorly or something.
Erin Hines:But anyway, I blasted through my last 10 year passport in seven, so I'm kind of skimming these fees increasing.
Erin Hines:Yeah.
Erin Hines:Although stamps.
Erin Hines:I was reading this as well.
Erin Hines:Stamps are becoming obsolete.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah.
Amanda Kendall:I think it depends where you go because if you end up with a bunch of like, you know, whole page visa stickers, then you can fill that up quickly.
Amanda Kendall:But yeah, otherwise it's.
Amanda Kendall:It's very sad how infrequently I get stamps these days, all electronic and you don't even speak to an immigration officer.
Erin Hines:And there you go, you just scan through.
Erin Hines:I'm trying to recall same in Hong Kong recently.
Erin Hines:Yeah, yeah.
Erin Hines:I feel like I'm trying to remember if I got one in Japan.
Erin Hines:I think I did.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah.
Amanda Kendall:I think Japanese still do it.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah.
Erin Hines:Yeah.
Erin Hines:I feel like most of the places we went on a world trip, we still got them, which makes me happy because I love looking at my stamps.
Amanda Kendall:Me too.
Amanda Kendall:They have such memories in them.
Amanda Kendall:I have all my old passports and every stamp.
Amanda Kendall:I can just imagine the situation.
Erin Hines:And sometimes it's useful.
Erin Hines:Like I don't always journal dates, which is so silly.
Erin Hines:But like, sometimes I literally can't remember, like when I arrived in a place and so I want to go refer to my stamp.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, exactly.
Amanda Kendall:Sometimes you need to fill out those awful, like for security clearance kind of things, you know, when were you in which place and stuff.
Amanda Kendall:And then passport stamps are crazy useful.
Amanda Kendall:So I miss passport stamps.
Erin Hines:Me too.
Katie Lohr:The analog nature of travel is disappearing.
Erin Hines:The analog nature of everything.
Erin Hines:It's so sad.
Amanda Kendall:It's very sad.
Erin Hines:Yeah.
Erin Hines:Yeah.
Erin Hines:I have had three occasions in the last two years where exiting a country I've.
Erin Hines:My heart has stopped because the immigrant officer has said to me, where's your entrance stamp?
Erin Hines:And I don't know why.
Erin Hines:This never happened to me before in my life, but three times this happened to me in the last like 2ish years.
Erin Hines:And it is so scary.
Erin Hines:So now every time Luke and I, like go through a country where you do get stamps, the first thing I do once we're through is I'm like, okay, we need to check that the stamp is actually in there.
Katie Lohr:But what would you do if you didn't have it?
Erin Hines:What do you do?
Erin Hines:You freak out and you say, please look harder because it's so scary.
Amanda Kendall:It is Scary.
Amanda Kendall:I hate scary border crossings.
Amanda Kendall:We crossed into China when we were in Hong Kong recently, and it was one of those ones where they ask a lot of questions.
Amanda Kendall:And then they were asking me, well, where is Perth?
Amanda Kendall:Because that's on my passport as my birthplace.
Amanda Kendall:What country?
Amanda Kendall:And, like, it's in Australia.
Amanda Kendall:I was like, I didn't know.
Amanda Kendall:You start to think maybe it's the wrong answer.
Erin Hines:I have this thing where, like, I get so freaked out going through immigration that, like, I overthink my answers.
Erin Hines:And sometimes I think I start to sound, like, really suspicious because I'm, like, stumbling over my answers.
Erin Hines:Like, whenever we do it, I'm like, luke, let's go as a couple.
Erin Hines:And you do the talking, because I just sound like I have no idea what's going on.
Katie Lohr:Every time I go through border patrol, I have an existential crisis, basically, where I'm like, who am I anymore?
Katie Lohr:Where do I live?
Katie Lohr:I don't know my first last name, middle name.
Katie Lohr:I don't know my birthday anymore.
Katie Lohr:I don't even know where I work or what my title is.
Amanda Kendall:I don't know the reason why I'm entering this country.
Katie Lohr:Put me in jail.
Katie Lohr:I deserve it.
Amanda Kendall:Except probably the drug smugglers and whatever else people are doing.
Amanda Kendall:They're probably much more confident in these sales.
Erin Hines:Probably.
Erin Hines:I would love to know.
Erin Hines:I mean, if you ever encounter someone who's done that, I would love to know.
Amanda Kendall:I have an interview on my podcast from many years ago when there's a guy who bluffed his way into, I think it was Bangladesh, and he only realized when he got there that he needed a visa, which he didn't have, and he managed to bribe someone to say that he was a diplomat.
Amanda Kendall:And so he got through the diplomatic channels, and then as he got out the other side, they picked him up in a beautiful car to take him into the center and stuff, because they fully believed he was a diplomat, even though he's, like, a shaggy backpacker.
Amanda Kendall:Look.
Erin Hines:ring as we start planning our:Erin Hines:Amanda, I've brought a few tips of my own, and then I'll hand it over to you and you can share, like, maybe one or two that are top of mind for you.
Erin Hines:So the first point I want to touch on in this discussion about how to be a mindful traveler is something I touched on in the opening of this episode, and that is decentering.
Erin Hines:And this is a concept that we've touched On a few times now on Curious Tourism, we learned it originally from Joanna Haugen of Rooted Storytelling, who talks often about how the tourism industry is so centered around the experience of tourists when it should actually be centering the communities that are welcoming the tourists instead.
Erin Hines:And if you go to her site, Rooted Storytelling, you'll find lots of great articles that she's written about this concept and she's written really specific content about how the tourism industry could be doing this.
Erin Hines:So it is, of course, an industry issue.
Erin Hines:The industry, like, really does center us as tourists.
Erin Hines:So it's hard as the tourist yourself not to like, pick up that perspective.
Erin Hines:But I do think we can do things like as individual tourists to shift away from that mindset and to shift away from that style of travel.
Erin Hines:What are some ways that you think we as individual travelers can support this mission of decentering ourselves?
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, I mean, you're totally right.
Amanda Kendall:It would be lovely if the tourism industry itself would just completely rethink and we didn't have to do all this hard work.
Amanda Kendall:But I think it's up to, yeah, people like us who communicate these kind of ideas.
Amanda Kendall:I think the biggest shift for me is when I stopped thinking about where I was going as a quote unquote, destination.
Amanda Kendall:As in, you know, this is the objective of the trip is to go to the destination and explore the destination and some of that kind of shifting language.
Amanda Kendall:So I think once I once I really started to think, hey, this is a place where people live, like the place where I live, and I am kind of invading this place, hopefully being welcomed because I'm providing, hopefully providing some benefits to the destination, the place by arriving there.
Amanda Kendall:But it's so natural to use that language.
Amanda Kendall:You know, we've used it for.
Erin Hines:I know, our whole lives.
Erin Hines:It's funny you bring this up because we had Vincey Ho on last year who explained this to me, like, why we should move away from using the word destination.
Erin Hines:And I just spent like two hours after that going through my blog, like, replacing every mansion.
Erin Hines:Now I actively, like it's becoming more natural, but it still slips out sometimes.
Erin Hines:And I do think there are contexts where it makes sense to say that.
Erin Hines:But yeah, it's true.
Erin Hines:It's hard to move away from this more colonial and marketing speak for the act of tourism.
Amanda Kendall:It is, yeah.
Amanda Kendall:But I think being quite intentional about using that right language helps you to remember.
Amanda Kendall:So I guess if I think about the place I'm going is someone's home and how should I behave in someone's home if the home is an individual home or a 10 million person city.
Amanda Kendall:I try and find ways that I can be more respectful or what will we do that has less impact?
Amanda Kendall:I mean, the whole kind of, you know, everything we think about, when we think about being better and more thoughtful travelers, but focusing on the place and its people as being the center of it all.
Amanda Kendall:And I land in there and I don't want to do any harm and it would be nice if I could do something good.
Amanda Kendall:When you do that, it sounds to people like, oh, well, that's not fun, that's not going on a holiday.
Amanda Kendall:But.
Amanda Kendall:But it still is.
Amanda Kendall:Because even with that mindset or especially with that mindset, I think you will find the kinds of experiences that are the stories you tell later and the things that are memorable and you'll feel kind of good doing it.
Amanda Kendall:You know, you didn't come along and, you know, buy four plastic water bottles a day because you didn't know how else to get safe water.
Amanda Kendall:And you didn't, you know, come along and exploit, I don't know, local kids selling stationery instead of being in school.
Amanda Kendall:Because you've thought about it in advance?
Amanda Kendall:I think so, yeah.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, that's kind of how I try and it.
Erin Hines:Yeah, I think that's perfect.
Erin Hines:One of the ways I've tried to frame it for myself is to just take a moment and be more intentional in thinking about why I'm going to that place.
Erin Hines:So a good example, I think, would be when Luke and I went to Nepal this year.
Erin Hines:The original why was we want to trek.
Erin Hines:We could trek anywhere in the world.
Erin Hines:Why Nepal?
Erin Hines:And once we had this discussion more deeply and realized, okay, there's more to Nepal than trekking, we can't just go to Nepal to trek.
Erin Hines:And this is something that I'm telling anyone who's interested in Nepal now, Nepal is so much more than trekking, but it takes work to get to that place.
Erin Hines:Because so much of what you read about Nepal is just about trekking.
Erin Hines:A lot of people we encountered, so many people that flew into Kathmandu, went, did their trek, came back to Kathmandu, flew home, and that was all they did.
Erin Hines:And so, yeah, we like, pursued a different kind of experience while we were there, which in that situation was to go do a homestay for several days.
Erin Hines:And it completely changed our perspective about Nepal.
Erin Hines:It helped us build, like, connection, people who are Nepalese.
Erin Hines:And now when we talk about how badly we want to go back to Nepal, it's because we want to see those people again and experience life in Nepal again, not because we want to go look at a beautiful mountain.
Erin Hines:The mountains are beautiful, but there's a lot more to it than that.
Erin Hines:That was probably one of my first really meaningful experiences where I was like, oh, this is what it is to try to decenter yourself in a travel experience.
Katie Lohr:I don't want to open up a whole can of worms here, so please stop me.
Katie Lohr:But this is interesting and I'm curious to hear your insights because something that I'm currently in the midst of is planning a Japan trip for my honeymoon next year.
Katie Lohr:And I've obviously stumbled into the algorithm on Instagram of just pure Japan content.
Katie Lohr:And everybody's sort of giving you tips about how to travel there.
Katie Lohr:The unspoken rules.
Katie Lohr:And obviously I want to respect these unspoken rules.
Katie Lohr:Not walking and eating, not eating in public, looking out for the women only trains and things like that.
Katie Lohr:But the more that you start to, like, kind of read things like that, it almost feels like it start.
Katie Lohr:Like you start to exoticize this place a little bit more and it becomes a little bit of a different sort of culture, that you're like, ooh, I can't wait to experience this.
Katie Lohr:And then you start to center yourself again.
Katie Lohr:It's like this weird cycle.
Katie Lohr:So I don't know, how do you guys think I should approach this?
Amanda Kendall:Oh, that's so interesting.
Erin Hines:I will say off the bat, I don't think we can ever fully decenter ourselves.
Erin Hines:At the end of the day, if you have paid money to go to another country, it is centering yourself.
Erin Hines:You can never completely divorce yourself from that framework.
Erin Hines:But I do think we can do work to try to distance ourselves from the centering a bit more.
Erin Hines:And I don't know, I don't think that's such an interesting way to put it.
Erin Hines:Like, I think of that more so as just like being culturally aware.
Katie Lohr:Thanks, I'll take that.
Amanda Kendall:I think it's also how you present it.
Amanda Kendall:For example, if you, you know, if you just, you know, come across, you know, a cultural habit, say, you know, not eating and walking, and then you make sure you don't do that, and you go around and find a nice quiet corner to sit and eat, which is my experience of Japan, because I can't.
Amanda Kendall:I'm hungry all the time.
Amanda Kendall:Especially when you're in Japan and you keep finding amazing things, and then you do that, and that's fin.
Amanda Kendall:But then if you go on social media and say, hey, this country is so weird.
Amanda Kendall:No one walks around eating, isn't that, you know, then that's descendering it back and doing all Sorts of other damage as well.
Amanda Kendall:So, you know, I think it's okay.
Amanda Kendall:Like, like Aaron said, you can't fully decenter yourself ever, like in any part of life.
Amanda Kendall:We're like selfish creatures because we're trying to keep ourselves alive.
Amanda Kendall:You know, we're focused on number one.
Amanda Kendall:So I think you can't.
Amanda Kendall:But I think perhaps it's how you react to it and what you do with that new knowledge or things you learn about.
Erin Hines:For me, like decentering in Japan would be just like looking for opportunities to do like cultural learning, hiring guides, like doing classes, like a cooking class, stuff like that.
Erin Hines:And obviously like trying to book local accommodation.
Erin Hines:We couldn't find any homestays in Japan.
Erin Hines:I can dig around though and see if there's.
Katie Lohr:You want to plan my trip?
Erin Hines:We never went to.
Erin Hines:I definitely would like to provide some tips.
Katie Lohr:I'll try not to bombard this entire conversation.
Amanda Kendall:I have a lot of trips.
Amanda Kendall:I could book a trip to Japan for three.
Katie Lohr:Yeah, was so excited.
Erin Hines:Yeah, same.
Erin Hines:I was just talking to my friend Lauren, another travel vlogger and she was like, I'm going to Japan for the first time this year and everyone I mention this to just like launches into like a monologue about all the things I should do in Japan.
Erin Hines:And she was like, it's getting really overwhelming.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, I can imagine.
Erin Hines:So my second point today is about social media.
Erin Hines:I think in:Erin Hines:Especially in being back from our world trip, which I shared a lot of online.
Erin Hines:This has been really top of mind for me.
Erin Hines:I've been thinking a lot like lately about like relationship with social media and I will say like, I got kind of burnt out posting so much of our trip and I realized like we're all posting too much.
Erin Hines:It's not really our fault because the algorithm kind of like demands it.
Erin Hines:Especially if like it's your income and you're a full time traveler.
Erin Hines:Like I understand why you have to publish so much.
Erin Hines:So yeah, that aside, in:Erin Hines:I see so much rage bait on travel, social media as well as content that just doesn't have context.
Erin Hines:And I worry a lot about how this stuff can cause harm.
Erin Hines:So for example, videos where people list the reasons why they would never return to a specific country that they visited.
Erin Hines:It's a lot of like the rage bait content is like this negative stuff about places and this is where the context piece comes in.
Erin Hines:Right.
Erin Hines:It's like you don't know how long that person spent there.
Erin Hines:A lot of it could be very subjective, like subjective experiences that formed their perspective of this country.
Erin Hines:I hope in:Erin Hines:I think that I'm asking very optimistic.
Amanda Kendall:But I mean you never know.
Amanda Kendall:Maybe there'll be like a brand new platform that's is.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah.
Amanda Kendall:That really centers on actually just being nice.
Amanda Kendall:But Erin, I have to say that, you know, so many of many hundreds of people I follow when you post on social media, I always know it will be like a thousand percent ethical.
Amanda Kendall:And I'm always like, I actually learn a lot from you about the way for example, when you travel you try not to have other, you know, strangers faces in there or you know, you're really, really respect like much more than even me.
Amanda Kendall:I must do better, you know, really respect of other people around and not, you know, involving them in your content because I see so much bad stuff and you know, people posting photos with little kids in and they definitely did not consent and their parents have no idea what's going on.
Amanda Kendall:That kind of stuff.
Amanda Kendall:Especially when you travel.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah.
Amanda Kendall:I also want to talk about the, the rage bait stuff because I see people just doing it, you know, just to get engagement.
Amanda Kendall:And I've.
Amanda Kendall:I don't know if it's the out what the algorithm serves up to me because I'm always commenting on it and trying to make people stop perhaps.
Amanda Kendall:But it's the like the cultural difference into it.
Katie Lohr:Amanda.
Amanda Kendall:I probably am.
Amanda Kendall:I should just walk away.
Amanda Kendall:But the cultural difference kind of rage bait like hey, did anyone ever notice that Americans always do X, Y, why do they do that?
Amanda Kendall:And you know, trying to phrase it as like a genuine question, but really they're just trying to get people to come and argue with them.
Amanda Kendall:I'm like, stop doing this.
Amanda Kendall:And then some people will, you know, possibly they do have a genuine question behind it, but they frame it in that way.
Amanda Kendall:I'm like, you wouldn't say that to someone if you had in this case like an American or a group of Americans in front of you.
Amanda Kendall:You wouldn't discuss that like that you would ask in a respectful way.
Amanda Kendall:Just be respectful everywhere.
Erin Hines:Yeah, it's funny to me too, because rage bait, I don't know that that's a nice experience for the poster either.
Erin Hines:Anytime I've had a video go viral in the wrong way, it's very not fun.
Erin Hines:And the thing about it, too, is it's not going to help you build the audience that you want.
Erin Hines:I don't know.
Erin Hines:I'm kind of hopeful because I do feel like.
Erin Hines:And I'm curious what you think, Amanda.
Erin Hines:I feel like in the last two years specifically, I'm noticing people talking about being more responsible in their travels, more actively in their content.
Erin Hines:It could just be that I'm building a really nice echo chamber for myself online, which is very likely, but I do feel like I'm just seeing it weaved into more discussion than I used to.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, no, I mean, I agree.
Amanda Kendall:It could also be my echo chamber.
Amanda Kendall:But what I would say to counter that is that I have had more like normal people in my life who aren't part of travel media come to me and they've noticed the stuff I'm saying.
Amanda Kendall:Like a friend of mine who's usually a real, like, detailed planner, and she's actually going to Japan, as everybody is lately, in a.
Amanda Kendall:Later in the year with her, with her son, and she asked me for a bit of advice and she said, hey, so you know how you talk about slow travel?
Amanda Kendall:And so I thought maybe I should cut out this and this city and just do stay longer there.
Amanda Kendall:Is that what you'd say?
Amanda Kendall:I'm like, that's exactly what I'd say.
Amanda Kendall:She goes, oh, see, I do take notice of the things you post.
Amanda Kendall:And I don't think she listens to my podcast or, you know, reads anything in depth, but just little bits from, like, my Instagram she would follow and stuff like that.
Amanda Kendall:And I've had more and more of those kind of situations where I think, you know, the.
Amanda Kendall:The normal, quote, unquote, normal traveler who doesn't get to travel too frequently.
Amanda Kendall:And you know, and kind of understandably was, you know, they're pretty centered, you know, on themselves in that, on their infrequent trips.
Amanda Kendall:But I have noticed more and more people starting to think about, you know, how to do this in a better way.
Amanda Kendall:So, yeah, I think we are getting there.
Amanda Kendall:And, you know, media, like mainstream media talks about it more.
Amanda Kendall:I do think there's some improvements.
Erin Hines:I do, too.
Erin Hines:It gives me hope.
Erin Hines:very positive at the start of:Amanda Kendall:We're having an optimistic:Erin Hines:Of the world literally going up in flames.
Erin Hines:I'm positive about this one thing when.
Katie Lohr:It comes to rage bait, though, because I think the dream is that people stop posting this content.
Katie Lohr:And I would imagine people would stop posting this kind of content if People stopped engaging with it.
Katie Lohr:And that's where media literacy comes in.
Katie Lohr:Because how do you even spot if it's somebody being just a rage baity kind of person or they are just genuinely ignorant to these fact about the world and they just haven't traveled that much.
Katie Lohr:So do you guys have any tips for people to on how to spot rage bait online so that they just don't engage with it?
Amanda Kendall:I mean, my first tip is that like exactly what you say.
Amanda Kendall:Some of these people are actually really experienced travelers and you can tell that very quickly by having a quick look at their profile.
Amanda Kendall:And so at least then, then I would usually step away from the conversation.
Amanda Kendall:So that's like my first tip.
Erin Hines:The way I know I've spotted it is because I'll see something and I'll feel anger or distress.
Katie Lohr:What does your heart tell you?
Erin Hines:And then I think, oh, maybe this is rage bait.
Amanda Kendall:This is very true.
Erin Hines:Just see how you feel, I guess.
Erin Hines:Yeah, like when I feel the urge to argue, that's when I know it's rage bait.
Erin Hines:And I, I'm actually like, not fully against engaging.
Erin Hines:I think if you engage in the right way, which is to like leave a comment that actually calls out what is happening in the video, not just like getting into the weeds and arguing about whatever the they're intending you to argue about, but calling out the fact that it's rage bait, I think can sometimes have an impact because a lot of people are going to that comment section and so throwing one extra comment in there that just calls attention to the fact that it's rage bait.
Erin Hines:I don't think that's a bad thing.
Erin Hines:Yeah, I think I just try not to engage with it because the more you engage with that content, the more the algorithm will serve it to you.
Erin Hines:And I don't want to be sad, so I try to avoid it.
Erin Hines:I know this is a big shift from my positivity like 20 seconds ago, but I'm pretty worried about the changes that Zuckerberg is making to meta.
Erin Hines:I think we're going to start seeing a lot more rage bait and really problematic rage bait on probably Facebook, Instagram, maybe threads.
Erin Hines:I hope not, but time will tell.
Erin Hines:Okay, so point number three.
Erin Hines:I wanted to bring this one up because Katie and I did an episode on it, ooh, like four years ago.
Erin Hines:It feels like a lifetime ago now, and we haven't really talked about it that much since, so we're going to talk about wildlife.
Erin Hines:And the reason I wanted to talk about it is because not long ago I came across A video, here we go on Instagram of a person, a creator, a rather well known creator, walking lions in Zambia and.
Erin Hines:And I couldn't believe it.
Erin Hines:I just feel like in my little echo chamber of a travel community, it's so common knowledge now that we shouldn't touch, ride, wash, feed wildlife, like under any conditions.
Erin Hines:But there are definitely a lot of people out there who are continuing to do this and continuing to like, post about themselves doing this.
Erin Hines:And I don't want to shame anyone.
Erin Hines:The industry is providing these experiences like they are being offered and often it's like kind of insidious.
Erin Hines:They're offered in a way that makes you think that they're responsible.
Erin Hines:So I think the solution here really is about education.
Erin Hines:Amanda, where are you at when it comes to wildlife and tourism?
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, so I have, yeah, I've done quite a few episodes on this topic over the last few years because I get really upset by it.
Amanda Kendall:And like 10 years ago, I knew nothing about this.
Amanda Kendall:I still vividly remember someone calling, not calling me out because I actually hadn't done anything yet.
Amanda Kendall:But I'd posted that I was going to Bali for the first time and a girl I knew said in the comments, don't ride an elephant.
Amanda Kendall:And that was the first time.
Amanda Kendall:It was probably 10 or 12 years ago, the first time I'd really heard about it.
Amanda Kendall:And I really remember vividly thinking, oh, why?
Amanda Kendall:And, you know, since then, obviously I've learned so much.
Amanda Kendall:And so I think that you're right, we can't call people out about it, but try and educate.
Amanda Kendall:And I do think it's improving, not just in our echo chambers, but it's still got a long way to go.
Amanda Kendall:Like recently there was that tourist who sadly was killed in Spain when she was washing an elephant.
Amanda Kendall:Okay.
Amanda Kendall:And she was at Sanctuary, quote, unquote.
Amanda Kendall:Sanctuary.
Amanda Kendall:So, you know, that's part of the problem is that, you know, it looks like from the surface, like, oh, well, it says Sanctuary, so it must be okay.
Amanda Kendall:But what I, what I really appreciated about that story was that I read quite a lot of different versions of it in different media, but in every case they actually, you know, whether they highlighted it properly or they just mentioned it, you know, kind of in small print, but they all said, actually, you know, this is not okay, even though it says Sanctuary, you know, this is not best practice.
Amanda Kendall:And so we shouldn't be doing this.
Amanda Kendall:And I am sure even two or three years ago such articles would not have mentioned that.
Amanda Kendall:So I think that it is improving a lot.
Amanda Kendall:But also what I Keep learning is that it's, it's so.
Amanda Kendall:There's so many gray areas in it.
Amanda Kendall:Like, I was speaking with a woman from World Animal Protection recently, and you can't get any greater wildlife warrior than someone who, you know, working with World Animal Protection.
Amanda Kendall:But she said again to me, it's so gray and it's hard to know all of the right things to do.
Amanda Kendall:For example, if we fixed everything and let go all of the animals who are currently being in tourist attractions.
Amanda Kendall:That's a huge problem, though.
Amanda Kendall:You know, there's many, many, you know, tens of thousands of animals that can't survive that.
Amanda Kendall:They need to still be looked after because they've been brought up in captivity that, you know, they've, you know, adjusted to life like this, plus the human impact.
Amanda Kendall:You know, like when they.
Amanda Kendall:When they initially stopped elephants logging in Thailand and moved them, they had to do something with all of those elephants.
Amanda Kendall:They couldn't.
Amanda Kendall:There was no space to just let them go.
Amanda Kendall:And all of those families who had been relying on the livelihood of owning an elephant, and you can't just, you know, abandon, you know, thousands of families.
Amanda Kendall:And so every stage along the way has all of these adjustments to be made.
Amanda Kendall:And so then there are.
Amanda Kendall:There is space still for good sanctuaries, but in the vent, you know, eventually the hope is that that won't be needed, you know, or that there will just be those, you know, you know, injured animal, injured, rescued wildlife that will be those kind of ambassador animals that, you know, help us connect to wildlife without having to, you know, go as far as a usual safari or whatever.
Amanda Kendall:But, sorry, all of that to say, yes, it's very tricky, but I think a lot more people are understanding.
Amanda Kendall:But we still need to keep talking about it a lot so that, you know, people are continuing to be educated and they don't just think, oh, I should do the right thing, see sanctuary or whatever, or rescue on it and think that that's fine, and away they go.
Erin Hines:It's tough.
Erin Hines:It's tough.
Erin Hines:I mean, we've talked about this before.
Erin Hines:Like, humans, like, we love animals.
Erin Hines:We want to be close to animals.
Erin Hines:It's like, in a way, like, I understand why people struggle to wrap their heads around this because it's hard to fight that urge to be close to such a beautiful creature.
Erin Hines:But I will say, seeing elephants in the wild has been the most incredible way to ever see an elephant in my experience.
Erin Hines:And so I think that people can get the same sort of experience out of an observation only tourism experience versus one where you're up close and touching the animal.
Amanda Kendall:In Australia, there's only one state left where you can touch a koala.
Amanda Kendall:And of course, koala, you know, okay, an elephant, that's a huge animal.
Amanda Kendall:It will harm you if, you know, it can.
Amanda Kendall:It can kill you.
Amanda Kendall:Obviously, a koala is a harmless, very cute animal that people.
Amanda Kendall:That looks super cuddly and, you know, I see in.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, and so they are very cute and seeing them in the wild means that they're in the top of a very tall tree far away, and all you can see is like a fluffy bum of a koala, you know, so.
Amanda Kendall:So I understand how people really, really want this experience.
Amanda Kendall:And I see, like on, you know, forums about Australia, you know, traveling to Australia, a lot of tourists from outside Australia, like, desperate to do this.
Amanda Kendall:So I understand.
Amanda Kendall:But, you know, it's actually super harmful.
Amanda Kendall:And even just touching them with, you know, the, you know, our dirty hands, apart from all of the other issues of they shouldn't, you know, they.
Amanda Kendall:It's very detrimental to them.
Amanda Kendall:It is.
Amanda Kendall:Does need so much education and so much de.
Amanda Kendall:Centering, I suppose, like, let's put the good of the wildlife ahead of our own selfish desire.
Amanda Kendall:And it's hard to do that, but we need to keep talking about it.
Amanda Kendall:So it's easier to say, hey, this is a wild animal that will kill you.
Amanda Kendall:But when you've got a.
Amanda Kendall:Just a.
Amanda Kendall:Like a dose of koala that just sleeps 23 hours a day.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, it's.
Amanda Kendall:We have to go one step further.
Erin Hines:What's your take on the quokkas on Rotnest?
Erin Hines:It's near you, actually.
Erin Hines:Right.
Amanda Kendall:It's right near me.
Amanda Kendall:So, yes, if I swam in this, this direction, people do swim, but I wouldn't swim because there's also sharks in between.
Amanda Kendall:People swim every year they have a.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, a rottenness swim.
Amanda Kendall:And it's.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, it's.
Erin Hines:Australians are built different.
Erin Hines:That is wild.
Erin Hines:I like the boat trip.
Erin Hines:The boat trip I found quite harrowing.
Erin Hines:I can't imagine swimming that.
Amanda Kendall:Oh, it's quite a badge of honor to have done the rottenness swim, especially solo.
Amanda Kendall:But anyway, so for many years the tourism board here was promoting quokka selfies because, you know, they're pretty cute marsupials.
Amanda Kendall:They, they look like they're smiling.
Amanda Kendall:And it took a lot of lobbying for them to stop using that as one of their key promotional tools.
Amanda Kendall:But they now don't promote it and they just talk about seeing quokkas without.
Amanda Kendall:But it's really difficult because they are pretty tame and, you know, if you leave food around, they will come and, and eat it, but obviously it's not good for them.
Amanda Kendall:And you know, people still try to get their quokka selfie or just try to get them close.
Amanda Kendall:So I'm.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, I'm very, very anti quokka selfie person.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, it was so entrenched for many years that it's really hard to undo that.
Katie Lohr:Thinking friendly reminder that we can do hard things.
Katie Lohr:We cannot touch cute animals.
Erin Hines:Yeah, it is possible.
Amanda Kendall:Yes, exactly.
Amanda Kendall:So true, Katie.
Erin Hines:This leads me into my next point quite well, which is intentionality.
Erin Hines:Something I've realized myself over the last few years as I've been on my own journey into traveling in a more responsible way is that one of the simplest ways to be more responsible is to just put intention behind it.
Erin Hines:So this can mean being more intentional about the accommodations that you book or taking extra time to ensure that the place you're booking is locally owned.
Erin Hines:It can be the intention to include a homestay in your travel experience, or the intention to travel in the off season or the shoulder season to help reduce the impact of over tourism.
Erin Hines:I think it's just like pausing for a moment and thinking about that.
Erin Hines:Why?
Erin Hines:So what are some ways that you're trying to be more intentional in your travels, Amanda?
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, a lot of those things that you say.
Amanda Kendall:Although I must say I haven't done a homestay for many years.
Amanda Kendall:I was inspired by your recent ones to look into those again.
Amanda Kendall:But I think above all the most, the thing I do mostly to try and be more intentional is to ironically, be less intentional, plan less so.
Amanda Kendall:You know, I really try very hard to make sure wherever I go, I can stay there, like as long as possible, longer than maybe the average tourist would.
Amanda Kendall:To not plan everything, to leave room for lots of local experiences, for asking people once I'm there, for meeting people and leaving space for.
Amanda Kendall:For different kinds of adventures, I suppose.
Amanda Kendall:And also the intentionality of doing a bit of research and just trying.
Amanda Kendall:Like, I know a lot of people say, oh, but I don't have time to do that.
Amanda Kendall:And okay, you can't do everything perfectly.
Amanda Kendall:But for example, a few years ago we were in Copenhagen in Denmark, and I often give this example because it just I needed to rent bicycles.
Amanda Kendall:We decided we would rent bicycles because, you know, that's how the Danes get around.
Amanda Kendall:I had my son with me who was maybe nine or ten at the time.
Amanda Kendall:You know, great bike rider.
Amanda Kendall:That's perfect thing to do.
Amanda Kendall:And so, okay, I need to rent a bike.
Amanda Kendall:So I go online and Google and you know, it only took me an extra couple of minutes to find to search through the different rental places and find one that was also a social enterprise.
Amanda Kendall:And you know, they took bicycles down to Mozambique.
Amanda Kendall:They also took their staff down and trained up locals in Mozambique to be bicycle repair people, giving them a livelihood, etc, because they'd found some places there that, you know, were, I don't know, lacking in bicycles but needed.
Amanda Kendall:So you know, it didn't take me really any longer to, to book that, but it was giving back in lots of different ways rather than just going to, you know, I don't know, don't know anything about the bicycle rental market in Copenhagen, but maybe some of them were like, you know, big multinational corporation owned, I don't know.
Amanda Kendall:But you know, it often doesn't take much time to just do a little bit more.
Amanda Kendall:But yeah, above all overall, like not planning much I think leaves a lot more space for being more intentional because once you're there on the ground, then it's a lot easier to figure out how can I be here in a way that has a good impact?
Erin Hines:Yes, I love this because it's actually something I've been thinking about, like the whole planning aspect because people love to talk about this.
Erin Hines:Like I find there's some people that are like, oh, I never plan anything when I travel.
Erin Hines:Like I, I wing everything.
Erin Hines:And then there's people that love to plan like every minute.
Erin Hines:And the way I've been thinking about it lately is like, there's some planning that you should do, but you shouldn't overdo it.
Erin Hines:Which is what I think we're saying is like, yes, happy meeting.
Erin Hines:Take time to do some planning around.
Erin Hines:And planning is more like research, I guess is what I'm saying.
Erin Hines:Like research cultural norms.
Erin Hines:Research things that are really essential, essential to know before you go to place.
Erin Hines:But don't over plan like your day to day in that place because it's so true.
Erin Hines:Like some of the best experiences Luke and I have had, like especially on our last trip were just like days that we woke up and did not have a plan and just went walking around 100%.
Amanda Kendall:When I was in Hong Kong recently, obviously we went to stay with friends, which helps a lot in all of this because you've got a lot local, you know, local contact.
Amanda Kendall:But you know, even they were like, oh, you could go here and here.
Katie Lohr:And we.
Amanda Kendall:So we did a few kind of typical touristy things, which are great.
Amanda Kendall:But my favorite day was the day we got up and they said, hey.
Amanda Kendall:One of our colleagues Recommended this Danish Christmas market over on Hong Kong Island.
Amanda Kendall:And so we went there and it was nuts.
Amanda Kendall:And then we went to a.
Amanda Kendall:A dog adoption meetup because our local friends were adopting.
Amanda Kendall:Adopting a dog.
Amanda Kendall:And.
Amanda Kendall:And they.
Amanda Kendall:The way they did it was they had all the like foster carers bring their dogs central and met up at a cafe.
Amanda Kendall:So I got to meet all these cool people and all these dogs, and it was fabulous.
Amanda Kendall:So, you know, like, that was.
Amanda Kendall:And that was our, you know, and we had a drink nearby on the way home before we caught the ferry.
Amanda Kendall:Like, you know, I couldn't have planned that.
Amanda Kendall:That doesn't exist on the tourist brochure.
Amanda Kendall:But it was great day.
Katie Lohr:I'll add that intentionality is something that I am deeply facing right now in my upcoming travel plans to Japan.
Katie Lohr:Something I wrote down in the script and I realized I might as well.
Katie Lohr:I'll just address it now, is that patience has been really hard for me.
Katie Lohr:But I feel like so key in making sure that this is a good, responsible trip that is valuable.
Katie Lohr:I'm finding it so hard not to just hop on flight deals right now and just go because I'm consuming so much Japan content and I'm so excited about all these things.
Katie Lohr:But it was actually my partner, Mark, who has been slowing me down a little bit because he's like, katie, I want to go to Japan, Japan because I want to see Japanese baseball.
Katie Lohr:And like, we have to go at the beginning of the season.
Katie Lohr:So we're not going during like peak season in the, in the springtime when everybody's there.
Katie Lohr:Let's go in the shoulder season and the beginning of the baseball season when it's gonna be really exciting.
Katie Lohr:And he's been like, really slowing me down and making sure we're very intentional about how we approach this trip because, like, it's so hard not to get excited and just like make that impulse buy.
Katie Lohr:ticles coming out being like,:Erin Hines:I kind of low key hate that people keep using this as like, oh, go take advantage of the fact that they're struggling.
Amanda Kendall:Yes, exactly.
Erin Hines:Right now.
Erin Hines:Like, what a weird way to frame it.
Erin Hines:Luke and I were talking about this recently, so because we don't like, plan tons when we go on our trips, I feel that Luke and I don't tap into the anticipation vibe that you have before a trip.
Erin Hines:And I think it's also, especially because we traveled so much last year, it sort of like, gets ironed out of you, the anticipation part, which is really sad.
Erin Hines:And so now we've been home for the longest.
Erin Hines:We've been home, like, of:Erin Hines:It's not even the same year anymore, but we've been home for, like, over a month, which is the longest stretch now for a while for us.
Erin Hines:And Luke is planning a trip with a friend of his to go cycling in the Netherlands.
Erin Hines:And this friend of his is super into the anticipation piece.
Erin Hines:So they keep having nights out where they go and they sit and have a beer together and look at, like, the different places that they're going to cycle to and talk about the trip.
Erin Hines:And Luke was just saying to me, like, it's been such a fun experience because he feels so much excitement for the trip because it's the act of creating the excitement.
Erin Hines:And so I just wanted to say that because I think you and Mark, like, buy taking a step back and putting so much intention into the trip.
Erin Hines:You're leaving space to build that anticipation, which is a really special part of it.
Katie Lohr:Yeah, it's making it every.
Katie Lohr:Every day is, like, more and more special, heading towards it.
Katie Lohr:But, yeah, like, I'm an impatient person too.
Katie Lohr:So, like, I can't help but feel very tempted by all the tempting things that are out there.
Katie Lohr:But I'm with you.
Erin Hines:I would be like, lucas, we gotta go in the fall.
Erin Hines:We gotta.
Katie Lohr:I know, Erin, you're like my vice because you're like, just go, just go.
Katie Lohr:No, I can't.
Erin Hines:But also, if waiting means you're able to go for longer, I think that's a very good reason to wait.
Erin Hines:Okay, so we've gone through a bunch of points that have been top of mind for me.
Erin Hines:op of mind for you going into:Amanda Kendall:Well, yeah, actually, it's really funny that Katie mentioned going to Japan for the baseball because lately, for various reasons, I've just been thinking about and producing content on just more deeper travel.
Amanda Kendall:And one of the things recently I had an episode about traveling to watch or take part in sports, because that is a way.
Amanda Kendall:That is a real way to travel more deeply in that sense of you're doing something that normal people in your destination in the place you're going to are doing.
Amanda Kendall:So when you go to the baseball in Japan, you'll be amongst a great crowd of local Japanese people who are there supporting their team.
Amanda Kendall:And it's such a lovely way to learn, you know, properly more about the place you're visiting because you're going that, like, you know, that's a.
Amanda Kendall:Going a level, deeper traveling.
Amanda Kendall:Like when we talked right back at the beginning about the why of your travel.
Amanda Kendall:And if your why is something that's actually not necessarily just for traveling or just to see somewhere new, but it's you're pursuing, you know, a deeper interest or learning something more about a hobby or, you know, you've got some other kind of frame to go with your trip, then I think that a lot of the other things that we've been talking about fall into place naturally.
Amanda Kendall:And, you know, you naturally get to meet more local people or you'll naturally stay somewhere longer because you might be doing a course or, you know, you'll be off the beaten path and not in just the tourist hotspots because you've got, like this other frame of why you're going.
Amanda Kendall:So I think that's something I've been thinking about a lot lately and kind of connected to that.
Amanda Kendall:Like, I saw someone write about deeper travel in this, in the sense of being like Jomo, like, the joy of missing out.
Amanda Kendall:And I know that a lot of people travel with much more of a fear of missing out mentality.
Amanda Kendall:And I've been talking about it for years and doing more of it in the last few years.
Amanda Kendall:For example, it's not last year anymore.
Amanda Kendall:The year before last, on my last trip to Japan, I spent the entire two weeks up in Tohoku, so, you know, north of Tokyo, not quite up to Hokkaido, hiking, going to museums.
Amanda Kendall:Like, we flew into Tokyo because we had to.
Amanda Kendall:And we had intended to spend some time in Tokyo either before or after, like our hike, but there was so much we wanted to.
Amanda Kendall:So many things we wanted to see in the northern region, which is not where any tourists really go.
Amanda Kendall:And we wanted to see stuff that's not really on the tourist radar at all.
Amanda Kendall:But we spent like five minutes in Tokyo, literally.
Amanda Kendall:And like, you know.
Amanda Kendall:And I've still never really seen much of Tokyo, but I didn't feel like I was missing out because.
Amanda Kendall:Because I could explore this other region more deeply and see some stuff that I really like, was so memorable to me.
Amanda Kendall:And I know a lot of people here.
Amanda Kendall:Japan keeps coming up, but, you know, it is such a big, you know.
Erin Hines:There'S a lot of attention on it right now.
Amanda Kendall:Exactly.
Amanda Kendall:And so many Australians are going because it's always been, for the last 10 years, been a really popular destination for skiing from Australia, they also all want to go and see Tokyo, Kyoto, maybe Hiroshima, if they're lucky.
Amanda Kendall:And that's it.
Amanda Kendall:You know, trying so hard to, like we talked about case, go somewhere else.
Amanda Kendall:Go into the countryside.
Amanda Kendall:Go.
Amanda Kendall:You know, there's so much to see all over Japan.
Amanda Kendall:But they don't want to miss out, you know, I don't want to miss out on.
Amanda Kendall:But, like, what are you, you know, what do you really love, like a big city?
Amanda Kendall:What's, you know, are you going.
Amanda Kendall:Because you really love that.
Amanda Kendall:Fine.
Amanda Kendall:If not, you're just going to tick a box, then don't do it.
Amanda Kendall:You know, go to others.
Amanda Kendall:So many options.
Amanda Kendall:So, yeah.
Amanda Kendall:That people do worry about, you know, missing something.
Amanda Kendall:Something.
Amanda Kendall:And I try and tell him to not do that.
Erin Hines:Luke and I, when we were in Sri Lanka, we purposefully did not take the famous train ride that you see posted all over social media because we just.
Erin Hines:Just didn't want to.
Erin Hines:We were just like, it's going to be crowded.
Erin Hines:Do we really need to do this?
Erin Hines:I think, like, the train rides we've been on have been really beautiful.
Erin Hines:I don't know, like, if it can get better than that.
Erin Hines:And everyone we talked to while we were in Sri Lanka was like, I can't believe you didn't do it.
Erin Hines:And we were just like, we actually feel like, so at peace about it.
Amanda Kendall:Well done.
Erin Hines:Zero regrets.
Erin Hines:The thing about Tokyo, it's funny you bring that up because I was talking with my friend, my other friend, who's going as well, sooner.
Erin Hines:I think she's going in the next two months, and we were talking about Tokyo.
Erin Hines:And I guess my take is if you've never been to an Asian megacity, give it two days, maybe three, but don't spend all your time there.
Katie Lohr:Yeah, yeah.
Katie Lohr:I love what you said, Amanda, too, about.
Katie Lohr:Because this is where I'm at, I think in where my head's been at with travel a lot over the last few years is like, understanding what our interests are and kind of exploring a different side of them.
Katie Lohr:So for us, yeah, we're big baseball fans here and in Canada, there's very famous.
Katie Lohr:There's one baseball team that we have that is super famous, and we compete against all the American teams.
Katie Lohr:But of course, my partner knows all things about these amazing baseball players and a lot of them come from Japan.
Katie Lohr:So for him, this is a huge interest.
Katie Lohr:And something we did when we were in the Dominican as well was to go visit some of the hometowns of these baseball players.
Katie Lohr:And I don't think that's as common, but it was just a cool interest of ours and we got to see where they trained.
Katie Lohr:And another thing we're into is cocktails and I know there's so many wonderful cocktail bars in Tokyo and we're also really into underground music and this is something I've been exploring is the punk scene in Tokyo and in Shinjuku.
Katie Lohr:I'm trying to focus our trip around just different layers of interest that we already have that we haven't explored before.
Katie Lohr:So I'm pumped and you made me feel more excited about this.
Katie Lohr:The skiing is a big interest of mine.
Katie Lohr:I have been a skier my whole life, so I would love to go to ski Japan in the wintertime, but I don't think that's part of the plan.
Katie Lohr:Maybe one day.
Erin Hines:I have so much intel for you on cocktail bars and also a bit on the punk scene because Luke.
Katie Lohr:Oh, I know you do.
Erin Hines:Was in that space.
Erin Hines:Actually, for that you kind of do need to go to Tokyo.
Erin Hines:But.
Amanda Kendall:But I think that version of Tokyo is like a really cool thing to do because you'll be with lots of local people.
Amanda Kendall:It won't be tourist central.
Amanda Kendall:So.
Erin Hines:Yeah, honestly, whenever we're in Tokyo, we've been twice now.
Erin Hines:We just wander around.
Katie Lohr:Like I was gonna say.
Katie Lohr:Amanda, thank you so much for Join the Japan podcast.
Amanda Kendall:I'll be on the Japan podcast anytime you want.
Erin Hines:Okay.
Erin Hines:I guess we should wrap this up officially.
Erin Hines:u manifesting for yourself in:Erin Hines:Really?
Erin Hines:Anything.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, I actually, for the first time in a long time, I have absolutely nothing booked yet for the year, which is weird and no particular exact plan, but I've got a couple of things.
Amanda Kendall:I really want to just head to the east coast of Australia.
Amanda Kendall:So, you know, I'm on Perth.
Amanda Kendall:It's like five hour flight to the east coast.
Amanda Kendall:But most of my friends live there.
Amanda Kendall:So there's a.
Amanda Kendall:The Japanese artist Yayoi Kusuma has an amazing exhibition on in Melbourne.
Amanda Kendall:I want to go there and then if I'm there, I have to go to Canberra and Sydney and see all my friends.
Amanda Kendall:So that's something I'll probably do.
Amanda Kendall:And then the other thing, which I don't know what it'll be exactly yet, but my son is.
Amanda Kendall:Well, he'll be 15 this year.
Amanda Kendall:Year.
Amanda Kendall:Getting to that age where, you know, traveling with mom will become rapidly less cool until, you know, he's 30 again and then is happy to.
Amanda Kendall:So.
Amanda Kendall:And what I'd really like to do, we've done a lot more in the last few years.
Amanda Kendall:Trips where we don't have much planned or we've got, you know, bits planned, but then, okay, now let's play it by ear.
Amanda Kendall:But what I'd really like to do is take him away for, like, you know, four to six weeks if we can swing it and go back packing properly somewhere.
Amanda Kendall:Like, my.
Amanda Kendall:en't been back to since like,:Amanda Kendall:But I would love to do that and just like, you know, land in Tallinn and fly out of, well, I don't know, somewhere we'll.
Amanda Kendall:We'll end up and not really have a plan and just take it day by day and just, you know, he's such a good travel buddy now and he's great with directions.
Amanda Kendall:I always just say, you find this place.
Amanda Kendall:And I just like to introduce him to that kind of, you know, relax, like, let's see what the day brings us.
Amanda Kendall:Travel.
Amanda Kendall:And I feel like that would be like, a nice area to do it where it's a bit different, but it's still kind of really accessible for him.
Amanda Kendall:And.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah.
Amanda Kendall:So something like that is what I would love to do.
Erin Hines:Your son, whenever you talk about him, I just think he sounds like the best kid.
Erin Hines:I hope I can meet him one day.
Amanda Kendall:He is the best kid.
Amanda Kendall:Look, I'm a bit biased, but he's a pretty cool kid.
Amanda Kendall:He has his faults for sure, and he's terrible at doing housework, but he's a great Traveler.
Katie Lohr:He's also 15.
Erin Hines:He's still a teenager, so you have to forgive him some things.
Amanda Kendall:Yeah, absolutely.
Amanda Kendall:Absolutely.
Amanda Kendall:But no, he's a really good traveler.
Amanda Kendall:I admire that about him.
Erin Hines:So, yeah, I'm also manifesting kind of like.
Erin Hines:zy travels, in the sense that:Erin Hines:So I've already booked to go see my family in the Netherlands, then to go see my friends in the uk and we might go somewhere else together after that.
Erin Hines:And then Luke and I are thinking about going back to Sicily to his family home.
Erin Hines:ind of like, Maybe, you know,:Erin Hines:Maybe:Erin Hines:So, yeah, I'm excited for that.
Erin Hines:And I'm going to be traveling to northern Ontario to Witness Katie and Mark getting married, which is very exciting, very excited.
Katie Lohr:Yeah, you already know my big plans are Japan and my wedding this year.
Katie Lohr:But honestly, I spent a lot of time last year traveling between, like, things for work and just like social engagements and that kind of thing.
Katie Lohr:re the big trip that comes in:Katie Lohr:And I love what you said about Jomo, Amanda, because my parents have a lot of travel plans planned for this year.
Katie Lohr:They went to New Zealand last year, they're going to Croatia and Denmark this year.
Katie Lohr:And I am fully in support of Jomo on all of their trips.
Katie Lohr:I love seeing them travel and they have the best time and I'm just excited to see what they get up to.
Katie Lohr:So I'll be living vicariously through their travel plans.
Erin Hines:Well, as per usual, thank you, Amanda so much for joining us.
Erin Hines:I love chatting with you.
Erin Hines:You feel like a dear friend even though you're literally on the opposite end of the planet.
Amanda Kendall:I feel the same.
Amanda Kendall:I know, I know one day we'll.
Erin Hines:Meet in real life, but I know we will.
Erin Hines:Such a chat.
Amanda Kendall:We will, 100%.
Erin Hines:Yeah, it will happen for sure.
Erin Hines:Luke's never been to Australia and he keeps bringing it up, so don't worry.
Erin Hines:Australia is in our future.
Erin Hines:So where can people find you if they would like to learn more about you, listen to your podcast or read your work?
Amanda Kendall:So yeah, they can find me by looking for the Thoughtful travel podcast in all the podcast apps or look me up on Instagram and most of the other platforms with Amanda Kendall and website@notabellerina.com.
Erin Hines:Thanks for listening to Curious Tourism.
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Erin Hines:Curious Tourism is written and hosted by me, Erin Hines and it's produced and edited by Katie Lohr in Canada's Toronto area.
Erin Hines:If you want to reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.
Erin Hines:Stay tuned for a new episode next month and of course, stay curious.