Protecting the Great Migration: Inside the Maasai Mara Hotel Lawsuit

Every year, hundreds of thousands of people travel to Kenya to witness one of the most extraordinary wildlife events on Earth, the Great Migration.

During the migration, wildebeest, zebras and other animals move between the Serengeti and the Maasai Mara in search of fresh grazing, following routes that have existed for generations.

But the Maasai Mara is also a fragile and increasingly pressured ecosystem.

Over the years, the number of tourist camps and lodges has grown dramatically, pushing tourism deeper into sensitive areas that wildlife depend on to move, feed and survive.

The Ritz Carlton Masai Mara Safari Camp promises visitors front row seats to the Great Migration.

But soon after this hotel was announced, community members and wildlife experts spoke out, saying that the lodge was approved in a place that it never should have been.

Today, we're unpacking the ongoing Masai vs Marriott Hotel lawsuit.

Why it Matters Far beyond the Masai Mara and what it means for those of us who care deeply about wildlife conservation and traveling responsibly.

Here to discuss is Jana Jacopo.

She spotlights human wildlife, conflict and conservation through her photography and documentary work.

This is Curious Tourism, the podcast focused on making travel better for people and the planet.

I'm Erin Hines, travel writer and content creator and I'm joined by my producer Katie Lohr.

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Hey Jana, thanks for joining us on Curious Tourism.

Thank you for having me.

So before we get into things, I just want to caveat that what we are discussing today is an evolving situation.

We're recording on February 23rd and so by the time this is published there could be new updates.

So some of the information we talked about today could be out of date by then?

Hard to say, but I just wanted to give this caveat up front.

So to start, Jana, could you tell me about Masai Mara National Game Reserve, the environment there and what happens during the Great Migration?

Yes.

So the Maasai Mara is in southwestern part of Kenya, a little over 500 square kilometers of land and it is one of the most sort of biodiverse areas in the world actually.

So it's incredibly biodiverse.

And the sand river runs through.

And then as the rainfall happens from, like, it's like July, October, like, sort of spring into summer into fall, the wildlife will migrate based on, like, water patterns and where the food is going to be and they give birth and all these different amazing things that happen.

And I think it's about 1.5 million wildebeest that cross.

And then you've got, like, zebras and, you know, other animals as well, gazelles.

But there's a giant amount of wildebeest.

So people go for this, like, great migration.

And you with the sand river, because there's crocodiles in the sand river, it can be very, very dramatic.

Like, you have these dramatic, iconic, sometimes really disturbing images where massive amount of wildebeest that will kind of get to a cliff and they wait for one to go first.

And, like, sometimes they leap, you know, sometimes they just stampede.

And so you'll watch this, like, if you're there.

And it's this really incredible thing to be able to witness.

But they've been doing this for thousands of years, you know.

So the Masai Mara is a great spot for photo tourism.

Like, this is a very popular place for people.

People to go.

But they've done something that's really wonderful where they gave the land back to the Maasai tribes, which, you know, during colonization, things were taken over.

And so they essentially are leasing the land.

So the Maasai are leasing land to any tourism operators that are operating there.

So they technically should have the rights to that land.

Even if you see operations happening, like tourism operations, it's happening with their consent.

When you.

When you're seeing this, the wildlife benefits from this area, the people are benefiting from tourism.

But obviously, where you have an intersection of wildlife and people, there's challenges.

Of course.

Of course.

Just a quick thought.

This is conjuring up one of the opening scenes of the Lion King.

This, like, image of the wildebeest running off the cliff.

Would you say that's an accurate image?

It is.

It's wild to watch them just sort of try to decide what they're gonna do and then go.

And it's like this stampede.

And it's just madness.

So, yeah, and there's predator animals.

I mean, all the animals know what's going on.

And so when an animal is injured or dies, like, the predators come.

You might have a lion try to grab.

The vultures are always going to try to come.

The hyenas are going to come, you know, so it's sort of like, they're all aware of what's going on.

It's really amazing.

I was in the Serengeti two years ago and I was not there during the great migration.

But still, of course, like, there's so many wildebeest and you do see them moving en masse.

And this is actually one of my core memories of being there was just the sheer volume of wildebeest.

Like, I was not prepared for the fact that you look out the window of your vehicle and there's just thousands, thousands of wildebeest.

It's so incredible.

It's like a blanket of wildebeest.

It's like you just can't.

Yeah.

And the number of like 1.5 million are crossing, like, that really puts it into perspective.

I mean, it's a tremendous amount of wildlife, which makes this issue, I think, very important.

Yeah.

So could you give us a quick summary of what the Masai vs Marriott lawsuit is about?

Because if you're on Instagram and in the responsible tourism space, you have for sure seen posts about this.

Yes.

And to note, it is an issue that's been difficult to get more than just sort of highlights about.

It's not like CNN is on the ground, you know, at Noroc County Courthouse covering this.

But the point is, is we're getting like, kind of bits and pieces and I think a lot of it's been through social.

So I'll regularly check in to people in Kenya on the ground and say, have you heard anything else?

Do you know anything else?

And that was because there was just way too much development in the Mara specifically.

And it was having an impact on the wildlife, it was having an impact on the land being able to recover and sustain it.

And often the first people who are going to notice problems are the people living there, the local people, you know, so the Maasai, who have lived there forever, they're going to notice.

You know, right now you don't see a wild dog in the Mara at all because there's no space.

You know, wild dog, for example, needs so much room.

So if they're going to constantly interact with a lodge, with towns, they're going to find other places.

So they put a moratorium on it, which was great.

And the Maasai were in support of this.

And something I always like to mention is that the Maasai in This area are making money from the revenue of the tourism that they approve.

So if they're coming and saying we don't want any more operations, that's pretty significant.

That's telling you that's pretty serious.

So there was a moratorium and then the President, Rude Rudo, he granted an exception, a presidential exception to the Marriott Ritz Carlton through Lazizi Mara Ltd.

So I think Lazizi Mara was an outside shareholder, wanted to open this luxury safari lodge with the Ritz Carlton Marriott name and it was directly in the sand river migration path.

So not only was it something outside of a moratorium that was a once presidential exception, it was in a direct route of where the wildlife, in this case the wildebeest, were going to be crossing.

So this created a lot of upheaval within the community and it didn't get international news.

I think had it gotten international press, maybe there would have been something that would have happened differently.

So Dr. Dipash or Dapash, who's an elder in the Maasai community in this area, who's been an active conservationist, he sued the Marriott Ritz Carlton, Liz E. Zimara and basically saying like you went outside of a moratorium and we say no to this, this is our land and we do not give our permission.

And that's when it started to get some attention.

That's when I think on social, we started seeing things and kind of going, what's going on?

What's happening?

But at this point the lodge was already operational, which a lot of us didn't know.

I think it was a 20 room luxury.

Butler service, plunge pools, very expensive, very, very, very expensive.

25 million in taxes to the government, jobs of course.

But the Maasai had already said we don't need any more jobs here.

So they took it to court and press started to happen and people started sharing videos and we saw some videos, specifically one where it looks like a big group of wildebeest kind of trying to cross.

They like have come over the sort of the cliffs.

Like you have this sand river, these big dramatic river banks.

It looked as if you saw them kind of not able to cross.

And I guess when they come up on the other end, it's a surprise to them, like, oh, there's humans here.

They're not expecting to see that when they come up.

No, not, no.

And so from the video, which has now become contested, Kws K Wildlife Services says this is not accurate.

This was not the video of that.

It's something else.

But you see the wildlife being kind of shooed away by the people who work there.

And now they might fall off cliffs.

Where are they going to go?

That's a whole other conversation about human wildlife conflict, which is my specialty.

KWS has contested this video and said, that's not what you're seeing.

Even if it wasn't that place, doesn't that give you, like, a prime example of a what if, Like a what could happen?

Actually, that's a great point.

That's the best book I've heard so far.

100% okay.

100,000%.

Like the jungle Doctor on Instagram, she's been sharing a lot of stuff on the ground.

She still shares that video.

I don't know her personally, but I trust her as a source.

So if someone were to say, do I think that video was legitimate?

I'd say, absolutely.

And now I will use your example as the argument.

And even if it isn't, shouldn't we see this is what can happen?

So.

So all of that stuff was swirling around.

People were getting upset.

It started to get international coverage, which was good.

The New York Times covered it, and they interviewed some local Maasai.

And one of the people they interviewed, Mr. Laram, I believe his last name was, he was one of the people who was in this particular area who would have needed to approve this.

And he said, you know, I went to wherever I would see the documents, and my name was on a document approving this, and I did not sign my name.

And he said, you know, I went to the police and said, I didn't sign this.

And nothing was done.

And so by the time it circles around to, you know, international coverage is starting to happen, he was able to at least give that story and say, you know, they don't expect that we're going to fight this because not all of us are as educated in the same ways.

And so they.

They assume some of us can't read.

And he said, so they think they can just sign our names.

The Maasai community are a unique, I think, group because they have more rights and more of a voice than a lot of indigenous groups in other parts of Africa with tourism.

But still, this lodge was built without any of us really knowing against what their moratorium had been and without people approving it, saying, it'd be one thing if there was a moratorium.

And then the people voted to say, well, we're gonna.

We're Gonna make an exemption too, right?

They didn't do that, at least not according to this one witness.

And so, like, I had started a change.org petition.

Just when I heard about it, I was like in Instagram, seeing, I think, on the Jungle Doctor, and someone was like, why isn't there a petition?

And I love petitions.

And so I was like, one in the morning, and I just went and put it out.

And next thing I know, it was like, thousands of signatures.

So that brought us to, like, people following the case a bit more.

And Dr. Dapash, who was leading this lawsuit, from what we hear.

I have not been told this by him, but from what we've heard, he was getting intimidation.

And that kind of stuff is very real, as we can imagine.

This happens all over the world, you know, in all certain businesses.

All businesses.

So we know that intimidation occurs.

So he was set to go back to court in the beginning of middle December, like the 16th or 17th of December.

I received an email from him before that date, a few days, and he had.

He saw the change.org petition and he reached out to say thank you for starting this and kind of like encouraging the word to be spread.

And like, maybe the next day he was at court.

And after that, I haven't heard anything.

But the word has been that he was.

There was a gag order put on him.

Some people have said that's confirmed.

I personally don't know that, but I've heard it from just about anyone that brings up the topic, especially if I'm asking people on the ground in Kenya, they say there was a gag order, he can't talk anymore.

And to track this.

I mean, he contacted me and then never said a word again.

So, you know, that could imply a gag order.

And then he dropped the lawsuit.

And that's what's been very concerning.

Controversial people are like, why would you go through all this trouble and drop the lawsuit?

And apparently Lizzie Mara didn't want to drop it.

They want to clear their name or maybe get damages.

Maybe they want damages to be paid.

But the.

The judge decided that it had now become a public issue.

This was no longer a private secret.

This was a public issue of public concern, which makes sense because it was getting international press.

So now the case is going forward, and now I believe it's going to like the Senate of Kenya.

So that's where it's living now.

And we're all sort of waiting.

I haven't gotten more details on who's prosecuting this case now, you know, what data are they collecting that could be different from before, but it calls into question Marriott JW Marriott's next project in the Serengeti in the UNESCO World Heritage Site, where they're building another luxury lodge, but they've lost money.

The lodge apparently in the Mara is operating at half capacity.

So they're losing money.

People, you know, rightfully so, don't want to be associated with that.

You know, I think the main thing is, number one, the threat to the wildlife.

We can talk about how that impacts them, but at a first, grassroots, like sort of the root of the problem here is that these are indigenous land rights, indeed issues.

And if the Maasai did not approve this, then this is illegal.

Yeah, like, it's tied to, when you really think about it, a much longer history of like, land dispossession and conservation models that were shaped during the colonial era when really like the Maasai should be in control of, like, how conservation and tourism in the region is.

Is done.

There are so many parallels to indigenous communities here in North America and how colonialism has impacted them.

Jana, if you were to describe all of this in one word, what would it be?

Corruption and greed.

I'd have to choose between greed or corruption.

Maybe greed.

I might put greed at the top because corruption comes from greed.

Yeah.

So I have a question because, like, coming into this, like, based on my limited knowledge of the situation, I was thinking about this very much in the context of like, this is an issue between the Maasai and Marriott Ritz Carlton.

But what I'm hearing is like, actually this is very much an issue, a conflict between the Maasai and the government of Kenya.

I would say that's a.

That would be fair to say because the government, well, the president.

So sometimes like in, in the United States, our president is not representative of our government necessarily.

So who knows if the government had a vote, if they would have voted to the exception.

So I would say it's a conflict between the Maasai and the President's choice to give a presidential exception.

So where, like, where would you say that Marriott Ritz Carlton, like, factors into this?

Where I would put more of the focus perhaps is Lazizi Mara that holding company and escape his name is escaping me, the president.

But obviously there's more than one person involved.

But Lizzie Zumara as an entity, if they were the ones financially backing this and licensing the Marriott name or however they were doing it, they're going to be the ones having those conversations primarily, like maybe Marriott jumps in.

Where Marriott should factor in is if they Want to be on the right side of history and on the right side of environment, then if they had any knowledge that there was a presidential exception, they should have said, I don't know that we want to license you this because this is going to make us look very bad and we don't want to do this like we, we're trying to do good things.

Now maybe, maybe that happened and maybe it over, someone overlooked it.

I have no idea.

But Luzizi, Mara, well, they all knew that this was a moratorium.

They knew that they wanted it anyway.

They went in and made them an offer they couldn't refuse, as they say.

I think Marriott as a corporate entity should enrich Carlton if they are wise, they should be considering how they appear in the world and want to be doing the right thing.

But I would guess, like I said, the actual investor operator Lizzie Zimara was the one having those conversations.

It's so frustrating because like, I know for a fact that Marriott has like a whole section of their website about their sustainability and social impact and they're publishing their impact reports every year and it's like, right?

Like, do you not see the irony here?

Like, it just, it kind of blows my mind sometimes.

It's maddening.

So I wanted to ask you, like, you might not know because this is really a question for the Maasai directly, but like, what outcome do you think is the ideal outcome in this situation?

Great question.

And I think the only way I could answer that is what I've read and what I've been told kind of just by people on the ground.

The fact that Dr. Dapash sued, initially sued and had the backing of Maasai to sue, that the New York Times article came out and local Maasai spoke out and said we didn't want this.

To me that indicates that what they would want is for the lodge to be removed and the wildlife corridor to be restored as much as possible.

There's data that shows that once you disrupt a wildlife corridor, which is where this would be considered a wildlife corridor.

Meaning like if you have a highway that you go to work and you go from A to B, like that's your, that's your route, that's your highway, this is their highway.

And so when you disrupt that, it apparently like they don't have the same reorientation skills.

So it can cause confusion and screw up their migration route forever.

So even if they were to like take it down tomorrow, there's no saying that you could like repair the dam.

Would it be better than just Leaving it up.

Yes.

But I think, like, one, to show that their rights are actually theirs, that this isn't just a.

Until it suits us, we'll let you think it's your land until we.

Until we benefit from it not being.

I think that right there, the indigenous land rights, it should be taken down and then reparations.

Like, what are the damages?

What damages do they suffer?

What damages did the land suffer?

What damages do the wildlife suffer?

How much went into the lawsuit?

What damages did people suffer by standing up for this?

Like, big, big damages.

Because also, you want to set a precedent.

You want to set a precedent that when you violate laws, there are consequences, because that's going to send a message the next time.

And that's what people have been concerned about and on the ground have been concerned about.

About what message does this send?

Like, if they get away with this, so to speak, you know, how much other development, how many other people around Africa and other places will be trying to pay off governments?

Because they're just, like, waiting.

You know, it's.

It's.

Why, like, even in the United States, like the threat of fascism, which we are very much living right now, you violate one constitutional right and it's a windfall after that.

Because you're setting precedent.

They should take the lodge down and there should be a serious look at what the reparations for the damages they've suffered for this should be.

Let's talk about those damages, like, in a bit more detail, because I feel like we've touched on them.

But let's zoom in, zoom in on a couple of them.

The obvious one is the threat to wildlife.

And then I would love to talk about, like, how these damages also extend to the Maasai people and how they live in the region as well, because I'm sure it does extend out to that, but with the wildlife.

Can you explain what type of human wildlife conflict comes from a situation like this?

Like, how does that change the relationship when they come across this lodge?

Like, that's directly on their highway?

I think this.

Yes.

I think the scary thing is that it's hard to say because you're not talking about a couple of elephants.

You have to kind of look at it in, like, this entire ecosystem where everything is connected.

And so you have not just got the migration coming through and 1.5 million wildebeest and hundreds of thousands of gazelles potentially, and zebras and all these other animals migrating.

But then around them, you have the ecosystem that is used to this.

Like, you have the prides of lions you have cheetah, you have leopard, you have hyena, you know, you have all, you have, you have all these different other species that have existed in this ecosystem.

And so once you like, you know, you have this like boulder in the way and then these, the wildebeest and the other ones are trying to come in and then they're, they're dispersed.

Now they're going, now they're.

What kind of happens is it confuses them, they don't know where to go, they can get stuck on, they can go into farms, they can go into roads.

So now you could encounter human wildlife conflict where animals who wouldn't normally be in human areas are now finding themselves there and that disrupts people, that gets them killed, that causes chaos.

Maybe they're eating food they would normally be eating.

So now people's farms are being more impacted.

And in the Mara, human wildlife conflict in Kenya is their number one wildlife issue.

That's actually how I started my film was that I, when I learned that I was like the number one issue and this was, you know, seven, eight years ago, I was blown away.

And they have huge population and the mar is crowded so they can't really afford more human wildlife conflicts.

It'll be a mess.

So you're talking about impacts that are disastrous in ways that could take, who knows when we'd find out, oh, now that pride of lions move and then some cheetah that were in another territory are dead because they moved the cheetah out.

And so, so you just have like a cascade effect of first that human wildlife conflict where you're going to see wildlife disperse, confused, not nowhere to go, that's going to cause wildlife death, it's going to cause problems with people and then I think the other species becoming affected.

So you just have an ecological disaster.

Yeah, because I think like the thing that people don't realize is like the Maasai have been living there for thousands of years and have learned over time like the patterns of these animals and the animals learn the patterns of the humans and it's sort of, you find this way to live together.

So when these disruptions happen, they have to relearn how to coexist in a way that is safe for everyone.

And I guess like it goes back to the point that the Maasai are the knowledge keepers of this land.

And so when you're building, you need to consult them about where to build to have the least, least negative impact on the habitats of the animals that are living there.

It brings me to like a larger Question that I think is probably top of mind for a lot of people who are, are aware of this situation and want to travel to Kenya or to Tanzania and see wildlife.

It's a question I grappled with when I went to Tanzania.

Like, what is the best way to do this, to go on a safari?

I'm just curious, like, your thoughts about luxury lodges in general as a way to visit these regions.

I will tell you.

We did a camping stage safari.

I don't know if this is better.

My sense was that it was, but I could be totally wrong.

Like, I thought like, okay, less resources needed.

It's not a permanent structure.

Like in my mind this is a better.

And we were very like kind of tucked away in these random places.

There was never wildlife around where we were camping.

Beyond the hyenas that came at night

and ate your sandals.

And ate my sandals.

Oh my God.

Triple true story.

But yeah, I'm just curious your thoughts on this because I know, like, I've also just noticed, like safari tourism is becoming more accessible.

I think a lot of people are really like, this is a bucket list trip for them.

They want to go, but people want to do it in a better way.

So what are your thoughts about these different ways that you can go and experience wildlife in these regions?

I mean, those are the best.

That's the best question to ask.

And it's also the other half of my film.

So my film looks at human wildlife conflicts.

We look at Kenya as an example, but we then look at.

But it goes into how it's being weaponized as opposed to solved.

But we end up looking at solutions and we look at them in Kenya and it's community conservation.

I'm like the biggest supporter of community conservation.

And what, you know, what that means is you have a safari, you know, a tourism operation that is community based, whether it's completely locally owned and operated, which is much less common, or, you know, there's a very direct link and very transparent benefits that are not just sentences like you might see on like a Marriott website.

It's this amount of people are employed, this much money goes back to them.

This is, you know, it's very, very clear when you are looking to say go on safari, I think we're talking photo safari, of course, not hunting safaris.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So when you're going to go on photo safari, it seems like another planet for people that haven't been to Africa because it's kind of is, I mean it's, it's the best.

It's Incredible.

But I think right there, it can be daunting because you might just get like a recommendation from a friend that went and just like, go, okay, I'm going to go with this person.

Or maybe you saw an Instagram ad and you kind of went that way.

And so I think it's a lot, honestly, to ask of people because they're already, like, thinking of all the shots they're going to get and, like, the clothes and am I going to get malaria?

And, like, is a lion going to eat me?

Like, all these things that are not going to happen, you know, but, like, you don't know when you haven't been.

But if you also want to be traveling sustainably and thoughtfully and considering these things, which thankfully, more and more people are talking about, I do think there are ways.

I think it's looking for community, locally owned.

Like those words like locally owned, operated, community conservation.

Like, if you started plugging those words in, some people are going to use them, like, misuse those words.

But that's where I think you would begin because that's where the local people really are getting the benefits.

And they're also having a say, like, do they have a say in how this lodge is being operated when it comes to Kenya?

Ilangwesi Lodge, which is Maasai, locally owned and operated.

It's in my film, we.

We talk about that.

It's an incredible story of how this happened.

Half the revenue went to wildlife protection, the other half went to local communities.

They built schools, they did medical clinics, clean water.

Everyone employed there is from the communities.

It transformed everything.

If the local people are invested in tourism, in conservation, they're the best protectors of wildlife.

They protect from the poachers.

They defend things like Lazizi Mar coming in and trying to, like, rape and pillage the land, for lack of a better way to put it.

They're connected again, you know, this was their wildlife until the colonial powers came in and ruined everything.

And then the governments tried to benefit from it and they get that back.

And so that connection is restored and it's beautiful to see.

And this is the stuff that, like, the trophy hunters don't want you to know about, you know, that.

That certain people don't want you to know about because it's empowered people.

It's not perfect, but they mitigate human wildlife conflict.

They don't create more of it.

The Sereni, Ole Sereni in the Mara, which I've stayed at, they are in the Mara specifically, community run, you know, community, like, as close to that model as you can get without being like, fully owned by community.

And I think when you look at the community conservation model, some of them are very luxury.

So if you want luxury, you can get it.

If you want like a tent in Zambia or in Zimbabwe, mana pools with like a bucket shower, you can have that too.

And it can be, you know, community run.

So even if you see like, oh, we do small, like we only have 20 rooms, but they're really expensive, that doesn't mean it's being done in a community based, ecologically responsible way.

So it's really like, is this community owned and run?

How much participation is there?

And again, the options are incredible.

And these are like, in my opinion, these are the best ones to stay at.

Even if you're like, want some bougie thing?

I'm telling you, like, it's, it's wild how they do it better.

They really do.

Yeah.

This is often the case with community tourism.

Like, I've stayed in home stays all over the world and like, those are always my most memorable experiences because you're closer to the community and you can really interact and learn from them and have cultural exchange.

It's just a completely different experience.

Completely different, but something different.

Something we talk about all the time on this show is how, like, you just need to be careful about buzzword because literally anyone can slap a buzzword about sustainability onto their website.

The one thing I've learned is you have to take it at face value and dig deeper every time.

Because unless there's transparency about this, you don't really know until you ask some deeper questions or dig in and see.

Okay, tell me exactly what that means when you say that you're a community tourism organization.

Like, what, what does that mean in practice?

And you know, we had a conversation like a couple years ago now with a tourism operator who, who made a really good point that I've never forgotten.

She said, when you start asking for this information, it's a signal to those companies, lodges, whatever they are, it's a signal to them that people want this information.

So when you start asking, they're more likely to clue in and say, oh, I should put this on my website.

I should make this public information.

And so it's more work.

But I do think, especially as tourists, it's a small thing we can do, go out and ask these questions that can potentially move the needle.

And at the end of the day, I know most people that I talk to, they want to make the right choice, they want to choose the sustainable options.

People want to do the right thing.

It's just like, when you're tired and living under capitalism, you don't have time to email, like, no.

20 different lodges to ask, like, can I have your impact report, please?

Yeah, right, right.

And then, like, have, you know, spend a weekend going through it.

But.

And I think something I. I've had, I've heard people say, like, they're like, well, should we just not go.

You know, should we just not go to these places?

And.

And that would be a whole nother problem because, yes, there's too many lodges, but in many cases, in a lot, and not in everywhere, but in a lot of places.

And I think, like, if we're choosing the places that really do support the environment, the local community, they want tourism, they want people there, you know, so it's not a let's just leave.

I think it's more like, let's not build more in areas that can't handle it.

And if that means that you have to wait another year to go, okay, that's not the end of the world.

That's actually kind of a nice problem to have.

There's one thing I wanted to weave into this because we've talked about the importance of choosing community tourism whenever we can.

I wanted to talk about the inverse because I think it ties back to another issue with lodges that are built by, like, Marriott and Ritz Carlton.

Tourism leakage is when revenue generated by tourism leaves the local economy rather than staying to benefit the local economy.

And that, like, from what I saw, traveling around Tanzania was, like, a very glaring issue.

Like, most of the hotels that I saw people booking into were these global chains.

What are your thoughts on this?

Do you think this is a problem in the region?

That maybe they should be trying to shift away from bringing in these global chains and focusing more on community tourism lodges?

I mean, a million percent.

I don't think corporations belong there.

I think it should all be community.

And, you know, corporations, like, by definition are these big businesses, and these are these very precious, very delicate ecosystems that corporations historically have not shown to be responsible stewards of.

Yeah.

In Tanzania, you know, they're incredibly problematic in how they do tourism.

In my opinion, 26% of their landmass is trophy hunting.

They've been pushing local Maasai violently off of their lands for years.

They've been petitioning.

I have it in my film.

I have videos of people that they post on Facebook of them being, like, hurt, injured, like, I don't know what type of things, like, looks like little bombs where they're like, things are exploding and people are bleeding.

And this is to make more room for trophy hunting.

Because where you have trophy hunting, you can't share land use, you can't do farming, you can't do agriculture, you can't do photo tourism.

So if you have an area designated for.

For trophy hunting, you.

You, you have sectioned that off.

You're back to that, like, isolation model of conservation like we talked about in the beginning of the original colonial model, which is.

I blame Teddy Roosevelt for that, frankly.

It started in the US and then it was repeated across the pond.

And it's a disaster here.

It's a disaster everywhere.

You know, there is no responsible trophy hunting.

And so I think little things like this, like this lodge being in the presidential exemption is a problem because then what comes next?

Ooh, maybe we'll sell some of the ivory.

Ooh, maybe we'll let Eutrophi hunt.

Just.

Just the blah, blah, blah species.

Because there's too many.

No, no, no.

What is the name of your film and where can people watch it in the future?

Yes, it's called One but Many and we have a distribution deal.

We were planning to distribute this year and now we're reconfiguring the rollout plan because we have the Parliament screening.

We might be doing some like, theatrical screenings in the US Potentially elsewhere.

Most likely it'll be like out.

Out at the end of this year.

But it's one.

But many documentary.com people can like, you know, join the newsletter and.

And then be on the update stuff.

But.

But yes, it's.

It's like a one.

It's like an hour 10.

So it's a feature doc.

I was just looking at the website and the imagery that you have for the film is so good.

It's a piece of.

It's a dollar bill of some kind that's origami shaped into the shape of an elephant, which is such great imagery.

Great job.

Thank you.

Yes.

I think our tagline is still.

When conflict is currency, the truth becomes

endangered as things continue to unfold.

What do you think people should be paying attention to this, this Senate, the

fact that it's going to the Senate.

There are sure to be updates on that.

There are some Instagram accounts I feel like that are great to follow.

There's like the.

The Maasai.

Maasai land rights is one that I feel like is fairly updated.

You know, the Jungle Doctor seems to be really plugged in.

I tend to share updates when I get something concrete.

The thing with like the petition, I think Like, I think people are still.

So I was looking today, I was like, how many signatures are now?

You know, because you don't always get the email updates.

And the thing with like, the more we share.

So like, let's say there's an update and somebody shares and Tags, tags, Mara tags, Masay Mara land rights tags, you know, JW Marriott shares with their friends.

Then that just starts to populate the algorithm and then maybe puts more pressure on New York Times to do another article, do the Reuters do another article.

So I think like that keeping it in our, in our like minds and in our conversations as opposed to up, it quieted down and now they can kind of just like do what they want to do.

Because I think that often happens too is you lose that momentum and then something else takes focus.

But I think the next thing is like, where is it landing within the Senate?

What does this mean?

That'll be like, I guess to be determined.

So what I'm hearing is amplify.

If you see anything posted about this.

Amplify.

Yeah.

There is a larger issue here.

There's a larger theme around land rights that I think is so relevant, especially for North Americans.

So it's not just about this story.

It's a, it's a broader issue that I think is really valuable in watching whatever comes out of this is going to make a huge impact everywhere else.

That's the thing, right?

The precedent setting that people are concerned about, that if this does, if this is allowed, then it really does send a signal.

It's that like, that, like first constitutional right violation, you know, it's, it's.

I don't know if these are their constitutional rights, but these are their land rights.

And maybe that does fall within the Kenya constitution.

I know they have a pretty democratic constitution, so it's a big deal.

It's a really big deal.

And something I have heard people say when they're not associated with Africa, like when they're a Westerner and they're seeing things like, are they.

Is it okay to post?

Is it cultural appropriation, to post and to share that can deter people because they want to be sensitive.

And I personally feel like it's only helping, like if you're reposting a Kenyan voice, a local voice story, you're just helping to amplify it.

You're not trying to hijack that story.

You know, you're saying, like, hey, I'm sharing this for you.

It's like how Dr. Dapash reached out and said, thank you for creating this petition.

Like, I make it clear at the bottom of the petition.

Like, I am not speaking on behalf of them.

I am just sharing the story.

Like, so you're not like, you're never saying this is your story, but I think just encouraging people to feel comfortable that, that we can repost, we can share.

And that is actually going to help because different algorithms reaches different parts of the media.

It gets different attention and that's only like, you know, going to help the people.

Jana, thank you so much for joining us.

This was amazing and I'm so excited to see your film, whether it be at a screening or just on my own TV at some point.

Happy to share it anytime.

Yeah, you're welcome to see it.

Amazing.

Thank you so much for taking the time and for educating us about this issue.

Thank you so much, you guys.

So nice to chat with you.

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