Ep 188 w/ Pauline Frommer (Frommer’s Travel Guides) – From Europe on $5 a Day to the Digital Age: Why Travel Still Matters

When you asked me earlier, do young people know our guidebooks? You know, that's our big challenge. The pitch I always try and make is, look, you can get information from some influencer online, but they've probably been paid to gush. You know, so our only client is our reader, so we're giving impartial advice. Our advice is really all-encompassing. We're telling you about the history, about the

Yes.

culture, about the etiquette. When you pick up a guidebook, it really does guide you in a very fundamental way, and that's why I think there still is a place for them. To me, the world feels very much like a big family, and it's an interesting time to have that point of view about humanity, because I feel like nationalism is on the rise in so many different places, and to me that's the important lesson.

of travel, which is that we have far more in common than we have that keeps us apart. And, you know, I think if more people traveled more widely, we wouldn't be in the pickle we are in.

Yeah, it's come full circle really, isn't it? Weirdly. A strange heart comes back round. Yeah.

I'm finding it to be a very frightening time, but we'll see what happens.

Welcome to the Winging It Travel Podcast, your weekly ticket to the world, dropping every Monday and hosted by me, James Hammond, proudly part of the Voy Escape Network. This is a travel podcast that throws out the itinerary and dove straight into the raw, real and unpredictable essence of global exploration, chasing moments over milestones, those spontaneous encounters, immersive sounds and unforgettable stories. Whether I'm hiking up volcanoes in Guatemala,

camping under the stars in British Columbia.

met incredible people, seen breath taking places and collected unforgettable stories. I now get to share them with you, alongside some of the most diverse and well travelled guests from around the world. Expect engaging conversations that bring fresh perspectives and inspiring travel tales. There are also raw, reflective solo episodes where I share personal insights, practical tips and honest stories from the road. This is a podcast for travellers, dreamers, backpackers and anyone who's ever thought, what if I just went for it and travelled? If you're looking for stories to tell, tips to share,

and experiences to inspire, then you're in the right place. There's so much travel content coming your way, it might just spark that trip you've been dreaming about for years. You can find Winging It and more fantastic travel podcasts from around the world at voyescape.com. The link is in the show notes. Let's go and explore the world. Hello and welcome to this week's episode we're enjoying by Pauline Frommer, the editorial director and the name behind the world famous Frommer's travel guides and also

host of the Frommer's Travel Show. Pauline has been at the forefront of helping travelers travel more frequently, more intrinsically and more frugally. And today we're going to talk all about the travel guides, travel in the modern era, the challenges facing Frommer's, her travel podcast, course, and delve into some much needed wanderlust for travel in the future. She really is a wholesale name for the podcast. It was great to have her on. She's lovely. We exchanged travel ideas, stories, tips, and everything else related to travel that you can imagine. A great hour.

Tune in, soak it in, drink it in, you'll love it. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you're on YouTube or if you're listening to this, hit that five stars for a view and a written one is great too. Let's dive in to a world of travel and what it's really like to travel like a local. Here's Pauline Frommer. Pauline, thanks for coming onto the podcast. Please tell the listeners where you're based and also how are you doing?

I'm doing okay. You know, it's a strange time in the world, but otherwise I'm doing okay. And I'm based in New York City, beautiful, safe, wonderful New York City.

dream city, my favorite city actually in the world.

really? Yeah. Well, you know, I write the Fromer's guidebook to New York City. she's my muse. I'm constantly exploring the city.

Well, we're coming onto that book and the articles are to that as well, later in show. But give us a sense first, because I think what's interesting about you and your story is that your huge name, is it Fromas? Yeah. And the last name is like huge in travel. But I do wonder, with the new generation coming through, if they're as aware of you and your brand as well. So I'm going to kick off with, can you give us a bit of history about your name and also travel growing up?

as a child. Where was that as well?

Yeah, well, I grew up in New York City. I was born during a taxi strike, so I was almost born on the subway. I don't think you can get more New York than that. ⁓ And ⁓ my story and the story of the brand starts with my father, Arthur. ⁓ My father, Arthur, was the son of two immigrants. He was born into the Great Depression. ⁓

And his mother spoke Russian, his father spoke German, and that became really important to his story because ⁓ though he went to law school, something happened to him the day after he graduated that didn't happen to anybody else in his class, in his law school class. He was the son of poor immigrants, so unlike everyone else,

He got drafted into the army the day after he graduated to fight in the Korean War. Everybody else in his class, you know, they had connections and so none of them were drafted. He was, but because he was the son of immigrants and had learned Russian and German, instead of being sent to Korea, he got sent to Europe because they wanted him to be a spy, basically.

⁓ wow,

Yeah, they thought that if the East was going to invade the West, there would be an uptick in food production. So my father sat in an office in West Berlin, talking to people who'd come over from the East. This is before there was a wall. And they would tell him how many loaves of bread were baked and how many chickens were slaughtered. And he had to keep these big lists because they thought there would be an uptick in food production.

A lot of Europe was still in rubble and his fellow GIs thought, if I don't have money, I may not be able to travel well or safely. And they would pepper him with questions when he came back to the base and he thought, well, maybe I'll write a little book for my fellow GIs. This was something he'd never done before. He just graduated from law school ⁓ and he self-published the book. And it came out the day he left the army.

sold out overnight. He had to go back to press on it. He actually practiced law for a full year before he had the thought, well, wow, maybe if this worked for GIs, civilians would be interested too. So we went running back to Europe to update his little book and he published it under the name Europe on $5 a day. And it became the bestselling guidebook of all time and changed his life.

And so ⁓ after that, he did books to other places. He actually was a lawyer and a publisher for about a decade, but then the books became too big. ⁓ And so I started traveling with him and my mother who eventually wrote the sightseeing portions of the book. I started traveling with them when I was four months old.

Okay, ⁓ quite early on.

My big problem when I travel is I have deja vu wherever I go and I don't know if it's actual deja vu or not.

That's amazing. I think everyone knows that book, The $5 a Day in Europe. think that is obviously, it should be well known because obviously it's the bestselling book. And I think what's quite interesting back in those days, the fifties, you kind of think our generation, your generation, my generation, think, oh, what is it like to travel in the fifties in Europe? As you say, after the second world war, I don't know, is it as idyllic as you think it is, or is it actually still under reconstruction? it some places untouched, you know?

You know, there were things going wrong. ⁓ There's a wonderful, a book of history. ⁓ damn, I'm forgetting the name, but it talks about what Europe was like after World War II. And you have to remember in places like France, certain people collaborated with the German government. did. And so there was a lot of anger and tension in France between people. Whereas in England, everybody had stood up to the Nazis. So there was...

Yeah, of course.

It was a different kind of feeling to go there. You had Franco in Spain. That was a kind of an ugly place to visit because it was under a terrible dictatorship. So those were the negatives, but this was the beginning of the jet age. This is the first time it was easy or easier to get to Europe. And Americans at that point had far more disposable income than Europeans did.

kind of was the best time for his book to come out because it was a great time to be carrying American dollars, US dollars, I should say, to a Canadian.

Yeah, I grew up in the UK, right? So I hear some of these stories from my dad's side. I guess he would have been a step grandparent, but he was much older. He died last year and he was 95.

My father died at 95 too.

Yeah,

yeah. There we go. I loved hearing his story about he was based in Norfolk. So Norfolk where I'm from is where all the air bases are. Honnington, Coltershaw, Lakenham now as well. And he described the first time he saw Americans and he's like, he's never seen anything like it. They're obviously black people as well. He never seen a black person before. And he they had money. They had like a nice confidence about them. He's just a farmer growing up in Norfolk, right? So he wasn't in the war from a military point of view, but he was there with the military.

day to day with the farm, Right. he would just tell all these stories about, yeah, this is first time I was 15 and I've seen these people come rolling through town, they're bread and eggs and stuff. And yeah, he would just say this to completely different world back then, because you don't actually know what your cousin is like in the US because you might read about it. You might hear on the radio, actually seeing it in real life, completely different vibe. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, a very different time, I think. My father has a photo of himself as a young GI in the middle of St. Mark's Square in Venice. Nobody around him except pigeons. Could you imagine that today? No, of course not.

wow.

Absolutely not. wow. Okay. And let's go to your travels as a youngster before we get into the more adult stuff. So you're traveling a lot as a child, I'd imagine. Was there any one trip that really spoke out to you maybe like in the memory or you just remember like, I had a great time there or was there like one place that maybe triggered something?

I was always thrilled when we got to go to Copenhagen because I loved the Tivoli Gardens as a kid. To me, that was always the highlight. And we went to Europe every summer because every summer they would research the book. So we were there for four months or so updating the book. we had, at that point, he had friends in every city who I considered aunts and uncles. ⁓ So to me,

the world feels very much like a big family. ⁓ And it's an interesting time to have that point of view about humanity, because I feel like nationalism is on the rise in so many different places. And to me, that's the important lesson of travel, which is that we have far more in common than we have that keeps us apart. And I think if more people traveled,

More widely, we wouldn't be in the pickle we are in now.

Yeah, it's come full circle really, isn't it? Weirdly. Yeah. It's strange how it comes back round. You kind of think, well, I've been guilty for this. I think, ⁓ well, no, we'll never go back to those days again. That was in the, as in the thirties. And then here we are today and it's, it feels like we are.

Yeah, yeah, it's a, it's, it's, I'm finding it to be a very frightening time, but we'll see what happens.

Yeah, I think there's always hope. think that's the key. And I think you're right about travel. That's why we did a podcast on Imagine is because we want to get people out there and in different cultures, not just the same culture, learn about people, the way they live, the way they think, because it only enhance your life.

Right. And you asked me earlier, do young people know our guidebooks? You know, that's our big challenge. And the pitch I always try and make is, look, you can get information from some influencer online, but they've probably been paid to gush, you know, so our only client is our reader. So we're giving impartial advice and

Yes.

Our advice is really all-encompassing. We're telling you about the history, about the culture, about the etiquette. When you pick up a guidebook, it really does guide you in a very fundamental way. And that's why I think there still is a place for them. ⁓ A, because we're not bought. That's the thing that people always misunderstand about guidebooks. They assume

that the hotels we recommend and the restaurants and the attractions all paid to be at the book. And that couldn't be farther from the truth. ⁓ know, nobody pays to be in our books and no entity oversees the editing or the writing. ⁓ You know, we're all journalists. And what we do nowadays is all of our books are written by local authors because we that you get a real in-depth look. That's why I write New York.

And I think that's an interesting point. think my generation's interesting. I do remember the days I did travel before smartphones, just about at the end of that period of time. So I did have to buy a guidebook. So it was a lifeline. You could obviously wing it and try and make it up, which I did in a few places. But it was a lifeline, right? But now we transition to this digital age where I do wonder how the new generation are going to travel because they do have the smartphone and guess rogue websites available in their pocket.

Is it genuine? Is it going to be like you say bought media or paid for influencer stuff?

Well, most of it is bought media. mean, you go to TripAdvisor, there's a whole industry set up to post fake reviews. I mean, when user-generated reviews have this much power, you'd be crazy if you just left it up to chance. And so there's all kinds of fake reviews, but even when the review is a real one.

You're taking advice from a traveler who has been to exactly one hotel. Yes. And you may not know that right up the road there's a place that's cheaper and better. Our writers go to every single damn hotel so they can compare.

Yeah, and that's crucial to get the best value, right, at the trip. Yeah. And for you personally, was it always going to be natural to go into the travel industry or was there any rebellious side of you thinking, no, I'm going to do my own career somewhere else or was it always travel?

Well, no, I was actually an actor from the time I was a, I guess 12 until 30. ⁓ I toured the United States in the company, the Broadway company of Les Miserables, and I did shows all over the nation. And for a while I was the voice of Harvey's Bristol cream. ⁓ Doing very bad British accent. I said, it's terribly, terribly oppa crusty.

That paid my rent for a full year.

wow. Okay. that the travel was still part of that. ⁓ I guess that industry, right.

In between jobs, my father would give me research assignments. ⁓ He wrote a wonderful book ⁓ in the 80s called The New World of Travel, which was all about utopian communities, yoga retreats, wellness retreats, things that were very, very new there. He always was on the cutting edge. When I was growing up, he ran a tour company and part of it

was about meeting the locals. And so he had activities set up to get people out of the tourist bubble. In New York City, that meant that once a week for about a year, tourists would come to our house. We were the typical New York family. And I would serve them Ritz crackers with cheese whiz and talk to them at the age of 10 or 11. ⁓ I think it was more real in other cities, but people enjoyed seeing our apartment.

like real connection. Like genuine connection.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, so it's sometimes positive that that's a new development. No, he was doing that back in the 80s and he was writing about wellness back in the 90s. So he was always on the cutting edge.

That's incredible. Okay. Let's move forward to now, current day. Our stat here is that people will know the brand has sold $75 million roughly in sales.

No, 75 million copies.

What's that? Over the years. ⁓

I'm

not sure, and that's probably more dollars than that.

I'd hope so. It's not a dollar a book, is it?

When

the book started they were sold for 50 cents

No, you know, the Frommer guides always have had an audience that has been mostly United States and to a lesser extent, Canadian citizens. And so the thing about US citizens is in general, we don't have enough travel time. We don't have enough vacation time. We take far fewer vacations than Europeans do, than Australians do. And so...

Our books have always been about the places Americans go and written in a very highly curated way because we know that our readers don't want to waste time. So we have star ratings to say what's worth your time. We tell our writers not to pull their punches. So for example, if they're reviewing a maritime museum, they might write this book, this, this,

Attraction is great for people who are really into maritime history. If you get jazzed by seeing replicas of boats in bottles, this is for you. If not, skip it.

Be honest.

And so that's very different than say Lonely Planet. Lonely Planet was created for Australians. And so they have much more concise reviews. They go to a wider array of places than we do. Our books are really more for North Americans.

Okay, and for Americans, actually a question, a random question that asks, this vacation thing with Americans, what is that about? Like, why is it so low and why is it still, like, still quite low? I mean, I can imagine, okay, fair enough, 40 years ago it was a thing, but still today, every American tells me, yeah, nine, 10 days PTO and that's pretty much, that's all I get. Like, why is this a thing?

I think in other countries, ⁓ just like there's socialized healthcare, there are how many vacation days you get is set by law. Here, you know, you have so many people working two jobs to make ends meet and not to lose, you know, your health insurance is tied to your job. So heaven forbid you lose your job. You're in big trouble. I think in certain ways we're behind

other Western nations in terms of quality of life.

Is it changing?

No, it's getting worse. It's getting worse. You know who's in office here.

do. Yeah. We're fully aware over here what's going on. But I'll tell you what, growing up in UK and Europe, I think as I can probably speak as a whole for content is baffling that you do get so little. And also with the healthcare thing, we don't understand why you don't have universal healthcare. Those two things are amongst other things, but those two are two things. If you're traveling, think, ⁓ it's weird how you can't just take five weeks off. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's crazy. It's really a shame. I think it makes our lives here ⁓ less full.

Yeah, I agree. Okay. And what type of travel

My husband calls me the ever-ready bunny. Did you have those commercials? It's a commercial for a battery that never stops chugging. Duracell, yes. So ⁓ I just, get up early and I don't finish until I drop into bed. ⁓ But I'm often working when I'm traveling, sadly. ⁓ I'm always looking for what the story is because if I'm not working on a guidebook, I'm writing articles for

like Jerusalem.

our website, fromers.com. But I love it. think often you have a better time when you're on a pilgrimage of sorts. Even if you're not a travel writer, sometimes like if you're really into teacups and so you're looking for the best teacups to gather or you want to taste the best chili con queso. And so you're on a search for that. It gives the trip a nice kind of shape.

And so my trips, I'm always looking for where the stories are. And often that will take me from six in the morning till midnight.

How do you split between, I guess, like personal interest to your work when you travel? If you're chasing a story, how do you fit in, like maybe want to go to a museum or want to go and do a walking tour or a restaurant? Like how do you mix them in your own trip? Or do you have like one day set for work, one day set for your own personal interests?

Well, I'm very lucky. mean, tours and museums are part of what I write about. ⁓ So, ⁓

can't think of anything that, I don't know, someone, I once heard a famous quote, you know, do what you love. And that's what I've been lucky enough to do. I adore going to museums. I could spend hours in a museum and I often do. And in looking for the story of that museum, I get to enjoy it very fully. I don't know, my husband would say I don't have much of a life, but I enjoy what I'm doing.

What's your favorite part of the travel experience? it the meeting like a local guide? Is it going to museums? it local food? Street markets?

It's always having a connection with somebody that I meet. ⁓ was, bizarrely enough, I was on radio for 20 years. And one of the things I had to do as a radio host was lead tours of our listeners. ⁓ And I was leading a tour in Taiwan. And we were at what I consider the Disney World of Buddhism. It was this monastery that had a tooth of the Buddha that was there.

major relic. that wasn't enough though to get people to come. So they created this ride. You actually got into little cars and you went through the life of the Buddha. So it really was like an amusement park of Buddhism. And at this place, we were assigned a German monk who lived in Taiwan, a Buddhist monk, ⁓ spoke perfect English.

and he and I in the course of the day just started talking about our lives and philosophies. And at the end of the day, I felt like I had made an incredible friend that I had found a soulmate in a certain way. And that made that trip to Taiwan for me. We unfortunately kind of started ignoring the other people on the tour a little bit. There were two monks leading us around. So he and I mostly chatted.

while the other monk led the tour. But ⁓ that's why I travel, to find soul mates maybe. I hope that doesn't sound too woo woo. But there's something, I once read that we get the same endorphin rush from talking to a stranger as we do from talking to close friends. And so I guess I'm in search of that endorphin rush.

totally the same. Yeah, I think I get it equally either from like a local monk, if I'm giving you an example, or even just someone I've met in a hotel or hostel, right? I think they're both the same experience because you do always learn something new. It's amazing how much you do learn actually from these like completely different types of people.

absolutely. Yes, definitely.

And for you, do you think you have a favourite place to go back to?

I really like exploring new places. For me, that's where the adrenaline comes in. Same. But my father loved Paris, and I have to say I could go endlessly to Paris, partially because I have a cousin who's very dear to me who lives there. And so I always get to see her and her family, and that's important to me at this late age. yeah, I think I prefer going to new places.

you know what Paris, I get told a lot on my podcast that Paris is a favorite and people do give that weird reaction like, is that cringe? I'm like, no, Paris is one of my favorite cities. go, you go there, you have no plan. You wander the streets and just soak all in.

And it's not only incredibly beautiful, you just walk out and everything is exquisite, but it's a place where you can have these types of real deep conversations with people. I this is a society where the talk shows feature book writers. It's very much a society that takes the life of the mind

Yeah.

Seriously, and I love that.

Can you speak French?

Not as well as I wish I

Yeah, it's one of those languages that I actually find quite hard. Compared to like Spanish or German, I think they're easier to pick up. But the French, it's a beautiful language, but it's hard to really get it going, I think. But technically, I've become a citizen in Canada, right? And we get the right to learn French. Becoming a citizen, because obviously it's dual language, right?

very hard.

Yeah, absolutely.

Most Canadians can speak both French and English. They're taught both in school.

They are. If you go to Western Canada though, not so much so. Yeah. Yeah. I don't speak French. don't know. Anyone speaks French here actually. Yeah. That's an interesting one. Thanks for tuning in to the first half of the episode with Pauline. Have you subscribed? Like the video? Have you hit that five stars on the podcast app that you're using right now? If not, hit it right now. It takes two seconds. And if you fancy leaving a written review, that's great too. I do love to read them and it helps the podcast too.

You can also buy me a coffee for $5 to help the production costs of the podcast. Head to the show notes and it's buymeacoffee.com forward slash Winging It. That really helps too. I do love my coffee. And finally, please spread the word of the Winging It Travel podcast to your friends and family. Get them to tune in and hopefully they'll stay for some more travel wanderlust, great content and inspiration to help them travel in the future. This really is the best way to spread the word of the podcast and give it bit of traction going forward in competition with all the rest.

Thanks for in. Let's get back to the second half of Pauline. Much more One Glass coming up. Let's go. Okay. I've got an interesting question for you. You might need to think about it. If you were to pick a decade, 10 years, does that have to be like 60 to 70? It could be any 10 year period from the 50s to the present day as the best time to travel. What decade would you pick?

think it really depends on where you're going. To give an example, I was in Vietnam right before the pandemic. And I watched the entire ⁓ series by Ken Burns on the Vietnam War. a great series. And at the end of it, Vietnam is in rubble. It's just, you know, devastated. And so to see it...

Yeah, great series.

I guess it was six years ago when it's really on the rise and thriving and the people there are so interested to meet Americans. So to me, Vietnam, this is the decade to go to Vietnam. To go to maybe Italy, probably the seventies maybe before it became incredibly overwhelmed with tourists. Although Ian Forster in his book,

a room with a view, which takes place in Florence in the Victorian era. He talks about over-tourism in Florence. So, in places that are just so magical, they've always been overwhelmed with tourists.

But you mentioned COVID, that was an interesting time for places like maybe Florence or Venice, right? They actually got to see their city for the first time in a long time with no tourists and actually see what it is as a local, right? Must've been incredible.

Yes and no. mean, they had some serious lockdowns in Italy. Especially in the Florence area. Florence was badly hit, if I'm remembering correctly. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yes.

That's what the first place was, wasn't it?

But must have been a weird time for them to wander around the city if they can go out and do the whole distance thing. It must be the first time they've ever saw their place with no tourists. Like it's literally just like- go out? Yeah.

I had a friend who lived in Barcelona during the pandemic and she was out, you got like a script of paper and you were only allowed out a couple of hours a day. I if even that, I think it was like an hour a day. She was allowed to go out shopping several times a week and other than that, she was expected to be in her apartment. A neighbor loaned her a cat so she wouldn't be going out her mind with loneliness.

I realize it's that straight.

It was very strict in Spain, I know about that. And I think it was pretty strict in Italy too.

Yeah, maybe it's a European thing. Here we just, there's no restrictions on going out. There was like queuing up for shops and stuff like that. But here it's just, yeah, if you want to walk to the park, you can just go in your little group and just keep your distance. Yeah.

Well, I was in New York. It was rough. We were one of the first hit in the US. And so, yeah, we were just terrified to go out.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, different times. Do think it's changed? The travel industry since COVID kind of dissipated a little bit and has come back to normal times. Do you think travel has changed?

do think so. ⁓ I think people are realizing that things you took for granted can go away. We saw a lot more people taking what are called bucket list trips, these big expensive trips to places that in the past maybe they would have put off and now they realize, no, this can all go away. We need to live life now. So ⁓ yeah, I think...

travel was supercharged right after the pandemic and it still feels like it's on a good high ⁓ because of that, I think.

Yeah, do you think it'll last longer? This little high we've got right now? Or do think it'll dissipate soon? I guess that depends if there's like a recession or something.

I think it's all dependent on the economy.

Yeah,

that's a big one, right? can't underestimate that, suppose, can you? No. Absolutely not. Is there a country or place that gave you culture shock?

⁓ so many places. I'm trying to think. The first time I was in China, I was in Shanghai and it looked like a place of the future. It just was a forest of skyscrapers. I live in New York City. You'd think I'd be used to this, but no. I mean, it really felt like it was in the future and you could...

The first time, my, and also the first time I was in India, ⁓ I've never been nervous to travel, but just figuring out how to cross the street was mind boggling, just because there was no clear way not to get hit. ⁓ Crossing the street, and I remember the first night washing my hair and the suds coming out black because the pollution was so intense. And yet at the same time,

People were so kind to us, talking to us, asking where we were from. Everybody assumed we were British because they said Americans usually only go out in groups. They only had met Americans on group tours in the past. So they assumed I had to be British.

That's an interesting take. they obviously meet a lot of people just on their own.

Right, clearly I don't have a British accent.

Yeah, I do see a few Brits on TikTok actually traveling China. That's quite a popular thing to showcase because it is such an interesting one to backpack or go solo, right? Because like you say, you've got culture shock and I can imagine I would as well, like the working of things out, especially if you don't know the language.

Yeah, the second time I was there, was there for the Olympics because Fromers did the guidebook for the Olympics. And I was there to appear on TV. this all happened at the last moment and they had thrown up all of these hotels very, very quickly. you you take a very long ⁓ plane ride and I was exhausted and I'd lay down on my bed.

and it was the most uncomfortable. It didn't feel like a bed. And I realized, my goodness, this isn't a mattress, it's the box spring. they had built the museums, the museum, the hotel so fast, they put half the rooms had box springs, half had mattresses.

Wow. I think said a few of those beds in my time. For your travel guides, did they appeal to a certain type of traveler or did they appeal to everyone?

Well, we felt like, first of all, my father and I took back ownership of the guides about 12 years ago. And I can't legally discuss how that happened. But we, at that point, felt like there was a lot of information out there for super luxury travelers. And there was a lot of information for backpackers. But there really wasn't much for the people in the middle.

And so we very specifically re-engineered the guides so that they would be for middle-class travelers. So we tell our authors 20 % of the listings should be for high-end things because people want to splurge every once in a while. 20 % of the listings should be for budget folks, know, hostels and cheap restaurants and the like, and the rest right down the middle. so...

I guess that's for everybody. I would say our books are for the middle class.

That's an interesting take. You're totally right about that though. There's a lot, including my own podcast sometimes as well for budget, because I guess that's what I did traditionally when I traveled. don't know if that's an age thing, but in your twenties and maybe early thirties, you kind of think you want to save as much as you can. And then there's loads of luxury as we all know, because some people got extreme amounts of money to spend. But you're right. There is not really a thing for middle.

There's not much for the middle. And we still, at heart, I'm a budget traveler. I mean, to me, the idea of spending an insane amount on a hotel is ridiculous because you're unconscious for most of your time in the hotel. So why overpay for that unless it's a resort where the hotel is your vacation. But for most part, if it's well located, so I'm not commuting too long, I'll stay anywhere.

Yeah, same. How do you implement certain strategies to make sure it's mid-range? Do you go for like, guess, I don't know, is it three, four star hotels? Do you go for middle of the road? Like restaurants, how do you find like, or commit to saying something is mid-range? Okay, based on price.

we look at the prices. It's

all based on the prices. Unlike many other guidebook series, we give exact pricing in our guidebooks. And so we do not ever ask the hotel what their prices are because they quote you rack rates and that's a fantasy. They don't exist. So we look at the same booking engines that travelers are looking at and we come up with a price range from that. We also give all kinds of tips to save money. Like right now,

Okay.

There's an industry that is profiling travelers and profiling consumers in general. So they know that if you live in a certain zip code or area code, you probably drive this kind of car and you spend this much on your groceries. And it's pretty clear that entities like the airlines are using this information to tailor our, prices that are served to us.

to what they know that we can pay. And so I've become a big fan of virtual private network.

Yes, VPNs isn't gonna ask, yeah?

can hide who you are as you're searching.

This is happening not just in ⁓ airfares, this is also happening for attractions. In writing the New York City Guidebook, I realized that a lot of the attractions in New York, like the Empire State Building, Top of the Rock, ⁓ Circle Line Tours, you go to their websites, you no longer see the price. Instead, you put in a time and then they show you the price for that time.

And so I started doing all of this research, just putting in time after time after time, because I realized that for like, the observation decks, was $20 more expensive every single day to go at 5 PM, which is the golden hour when you can take beautiful photos than if you went at 10 AM.

And there's no way you'd know that unless a lot of fromers got it. Because we're doing the damn research so we can give you what the patterns are and let you know that there are these crazy patterns.

So how is AI going to influence your brand? Is it going to help or hinder you, do think?

AI is killing us. is killing us, not the books. Actually, I think AI has unleashed such a flood of crap on the internet, but people are returning to books. So book sales are good, but they've stolen all of our copyrighted material. So on the web, not just us, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Toronto Star, I mean, every single major media site out there has lost

Of course,

40 to 60 percent of their traffic in the last year because people now are going to Google and just reading those damn little paragraphs that appear. that's hurting all of media.

Yeah, that's a real big worry actually. I've spoken to a few bloggers and they're just, they've been decimated. Decimated. Yeah. And I think they're actually generally worried. I think obviously before you might be worried with a Google update and that's something to work with. But now this AI thing is crushing it.

Well, Google is about to move to linkless search. So I'm a member of ⁓ something called the News Media Alliance here in the United States, which is an alliance of every single publisher in the country, magazines, newspapers, web. And we are considering filing for an injunction against it, although it's hard to prove damages because we don't really know what the damages will be. We assume they'll be great.

Thank you.

If had the books, we'd be in big trouble. I Fromers.com, we were one of the very first websites on the web to deal with travel. We existed before Expedia did. ⁓ And so, you know, the web has always been a big part of what we did. But now, I'm not sure. It's an interesting time.

And how do you think, off-street question, AI will affect travel as a whole? Do think there's going to be an hindrance to the experience that people maybe are trying to seek? Like, for example, I'll give you an example. I keep thinking these AI, I guess they're companies now where you can chuck in like how many travelers there are, what's your budget, location and stuff to do. And that can like give you a whole list of things, which is, I guess, find a book.

It could also help you find resources, right? And then people will probably go on YouTube these days. YouTube is quite big. Maybe watch 10 videos of where you're going. I'm thinking bloody hell, like before I know it, I've seen the place. I just wonder if that's affecting the actual genuine experience of some people. I guess I'm mainly thinking newer generations where they watch and read or they probably watch more stuff before they go and then think it's probably not as good as they thought it going to be.

I don't know they think that. My daughters watch a lot of videos before they travel and sometimes they find interesting things and sometimes they find that they've just been sold a bill of goods because the YouTuber is being paid to make a f*** better than it is. You know, I tend to be very cynical. I think that the forces that are now shaping what you find on user-generated sites on the web

yeah,

will find a way to tilt the balance on AI. I think that ⁓ Marriott and Hilton and Air Canada and the tourist boards and all these folks have a genuine interest in shaping the way AI delivers its responses. And I'm sure there will be ways to do that.

Hmm.

⁓ I'm sure it's happening now because if you think about it more travel content on the web is marketing and is journalism. If AI is scraping all of it, it's giving you the marketer's point of view. with, know, so, that's I think a danger, but who knows? Maybe it'll be very good. I don't know. Apparently it's not making any money. And frankly, from a

yeah.

A green point of view, it's terrible. Oh yeah. The amount of energy it uses. I was just on a panel with a writer from the Sierra Club and he was saying that a lot of coal plants that had been decommissioned are being put back online. Coal generated electricity to, so they're using the oldest worst technology.

to create enough power for AI just because it needs such a... Apparently, if you ask a question on Google, just a regular question, that's like 20 seconds worth of putting on a light bulb. If you go to AI and ask that same question, it's the same amount of energy as having a light bulb on for 20 minutes.

⁓ Wow. So I guess in theory AI would read or go through everything it knows, which is basically the whole internet, right? And then pick out your answer. So it's going to need so much energy and power to get through, isn't it? Because of the machine learning and language learning as well.

exponentially worse.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's not making them any money for the AI companies yet, apparently.

Yeah, not yet. So that's why Musk is a bit annoyed with open AI. But, yeah, we'll see how that goes, which goes on nicely to our podcast, right? Because let's talk positivity about the industry for a second. We both do travel podcasts, which I do believe at the minute is a genuine resource. could be any, I could say any industry there. Let's stick to travel. For travel, I think we would

obviously script and talk about our own things we want to talk about. They could be genuine real life experiences. I think if anyone's listening, I think they can probably trust us to give what we think is most authentic and correct answer for anywhere we're recommending or any types of travel, right? I think it's a good space to be in.

Absolutely. Yeah, I know I try to. I I came to podcasting in an old-fashioned way. I was on radio for 20 years, then radio became all politics. ⁓ So ⁓ I created this podcast to keep my radio audience. ⁓ But it's really nice. On radio, I had to talk in different chunks. There was 11 minutes before the first commercial break, and then seven minutes, then another seven.

Whereas a podcast, I can just let it flow and whatever works, works, which is very freeing.

tell the listeners of your podcast and why you started it as well.

Well, the Fromers podcast ⁓ has been, you know, it was our radio show, which was then on computer as a podcast. Now it's simply a podcast. ⁓ And I started to introduce people to the trends we're seeing in travel, to talk about destinations you may not have heard of, to interview authors who have a really interesting

takes on travel, like I'll soon be doing an interview with a wonderful writer named Jeff Greenwald, who ⁓ went around the world 30 years ago, ⁓ never not touching land or sea. So he didn't fly anywhere. He's updated it now, his that book for the current age. that's a fascinating way to.

Okay, yeah

to travel, it's a greener way to travel. ⁓ And so I have great authors like Jeff on. ⁓ I just try to keep it fun and interesting and informative.

How often do you release an episode? Sunday morning. so people get up for their coffee and it's there waiting for them,

Every Sunday morning.

Yeah, yeah. I have some people who exercise to it. Interesting.

That's very interesting. And what do you hope the podcast will do for the brand? Do you think it would be an extension of your books or is it completely separate? Just conversations? How do you think it will help your brand?

Well, we do often feature, not always, but we often feature our guidebook writers because they're embedded all around the world. when the fires happened in Maui a couple of years ago, we got Jeanne Cooper, who is one of our wonderful Hawaii authors. And she came on about two weeks later and discussed, could you still go to Maui? What exactly was happening there with travel?

It looked like the whole island was on fire and it really was just one portion. But unfortunately, it was the portion where a lot of the workers lived. And so what happened for two years after the fires was a lot of hotels closed half their rooms because they didn't have enough staff to fully staff the entire hotel and raised their prices.

to be as if they had the whole hotel open. So Maui, after the fires, became one of the most expensive places on earth to go. And she was able to explain why that was happening, which I thought was very interesting. ⁓ And also what was lost, what was still there. She was reporting from Maui.

I know you've had some guests that have been on my podcast. I think you had my friend Shafik from the UK. Shafik Mejoo. yes.

Yes,

he wrote a wonderful book about the UK in South America.

Small

Earthquakes. Yeah. It's a book. And he wrote one about Bolivia called Crossed Bolivia. That's another great book. Yeah. He's a South American expert, but he's come on about three times. Yeah. Great guy. He has a great way looking at travel, I think, and a great writer as well. So you have similar guests to me, which are great people to speak to, but also trusted voices in the industry.

Fascinating, yeah.

I haven't read that.

people who aren't there to sell anything. Except maybe their books, you know.

But he came up with the idea to write a book, right? It's not like someone's told him to write a book. yeah, it's completely genuine. Yeah. I do a YouTube channel. It's quite interesting about the money thing, right? Cause I spoke to Mark Walters, another previous guest. He's got like 1.2 million subscribers, but he prides himself on honest travel advice. And he explained to on the podcast episode about YouTube, he's never taken a episode. He says, can't endorse something I don't like.

Exactly. Yeah.

Sure. But you said, you'll find a lot of creators who are full time, I guess, making a living out of it. They do take those payments. So you've to be careful who you trust in the industry. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Where can people find your guidebooks, social medias, Give us all the links and I'll put them in the show notes.

Yeah.

Our guidebooks are available wherever books are sold. I'm a big fan of independent bookstores. So that's where I would suggest you look first, but you'll also find us on BarnesandNoble.com, on Amazon.com, Fromers.com has different articles every single damn day of the year about travel trends, about unusual things you need to know to travel better.

money-saving strategies. I think our most popular one now, one of our editors went to New Zealand and brought with him 10 different travel pillows. And he tested each one for an hour of the flight going there and back and came up with a clear winner and a very witty article about why the one he picked was the winner. ⁓ we have Fromers.com.

We're on Instagram, at Frommers, F-R-O-M-M-E-R-S. We're on Blue Sky, and we're also on Facebook.

Okay. And the podcast is on Apple podcast, Spotify, all the usual apps I'd imagine. Voyascape. And Voyascape.com, the same network. The same network that we're both on. Okay. That's great. I'll put them in the show notes. I'm going to finish the episode with my quick fire travel questions. Okay. These are your favorite things you've seen on your own travels. You might not like some of the questions, but I'm to ask them anyway. ⁓ It's travel question time. Your top three favorite places.

Boy escape.

through, well, New York City since she's my muse, I guess Paris. And I fell in love with Vietnam. I'll put Vietnam in that list.

What about three places you've not travelled to that are next on your hit list?

I've never been to Antarctica. ⁓ I'd really, really like to go to South Africa. I've been to other parts of Africa, but never there. And I spent a lot of time reading the novels and plays that came out of there. So I'd like to go to South Africa. And ⁓ I hear very good things about Algeria. I'm really interested to go to Algeria.

not talked about that much.

No, I got to speak at the Century Club, which is a club of people who have been to a hundred or more countries. And everybody there was raving about Algeria.

Wow, well there it goes on my list then, okay. If you could live somewhere tomorrow for a year, that's not your home country, where are you going to live?

I guess I would, ⁓ hmm, that's a hard one. I think I, I, maybe South Africa. I haven't been there before, so I can't really say for sure. Or Portugal or I hear Montenegro is amazing. As for expats, maybe Montenegro.

Okay, what about three top tips for saving money when traveling?

Use a VPN, you want to hide who you are. ⁓ Don't assume you'll have the best experience in the most expensive place. Often, ⁓ you know, going to the most expensive place makes you more filled with complaints when things go wrong. I think you have a better mind space when you're there saving money.

⁓ And what's another good money saving tip? And buy a travel guide. You you will save with the tips we give. You will save the cost of the book and more. And have a better trip.

Okay, that's amazing. Okay. What about top three favorite cuisines?

Japanese, ⁓ I guess Japanese, I very much like Spanish food and I guess Vietnamese food.

Yeah, that's good. Okay. Are you a sunrise or sunset person? Do know that's the most popular answer? I always think it'd be sunrise, but hey.

sunset.

Who gets up better?

I know that's the reason, but I thought something quite magical about the day to start the day. Oh, who knows? Okay. What about, let's go with your top three favorite experiences, like activities that you had when traveling.

went to ⁓ Cartagena once and I was writing an article about tours you could take there and I took a salsa dancing tour where you learned how to do the dance and ⁓ you went to different clubs around the city and I loved it so much. I ended up being the last person on the tour to leave and I felt guilty because the guide was out with me until like four in the morning. We started with 20 and then it was just him and me.

And he said, I'd be out dancing anyway. It's okay. Everywhere you go in Cartagena, there's music. I just loved that. I loved Columbia. So that was one. As a journalist, I got to go to the ⁓ Mercedes-Benz factory because they no longer make ⁓ cars. They've been making engines for the last 20 years. And I got to...

Okay, deno-

visit with the engineers who were creating a new propeller. Most propellers move very, very fast and take in lots of air. They re-engineered it to move much slower, but take in as much air, and thus use much less fuel. And the things they were working on, being in the presence of these incredibly smart people.

who were trying to solve the world's problems. As a journalist, as a travel writer, that was one of my most exciting trips. And I'm not very science literate. I never was good at math. just the mental challenge of it all was very exciting and often off-putting. had to grab people and pull them to the side and say, okay, you said this, I don't understand it.

please explain it again and they would. So that was one, two and gosh, I guess I have two daughters and I think all of the trips with them, I can make that- Sure. Seeing the world through their eyes as they've been growing up has been a real gift.

Okay, if you could sit somewhere tomorrow with a cup of coffee or glass of wine, whatever you want, and just watch the world go by for an afternoon, where are you going to sit?

I

haven't been before. I'm not sure where. Somewhere with maybe with good wine, maybe Montenegro.

⁓ okay. Has that been anywhere on your new country or new place list that you've had for years and you just can't get there? What's the longest one that's been on the list? Okay. Yeah. Okay. One more question. Two sentences you get here as to why someone should take the lead to go and travel maybe somewhere a bit different outside of the comfort zone. And if a bit scared, what two sentences would you give as advice as to why they should go?

So many places. ⁓

South Africa.

You will be dead very soon. Why not experience the wider world?

Okay. That's great. Pauline, thanks for coming on the podcast. It's been a great chat. Very engaging. I've loved it.

⁓ thank you. It was a lot of fun.

Thanks so much. Thank you. for tuning in to the podcast episode today. If you've been inspired by today's chat and want to book some travel.

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